I2P dev meeting, July 14, 2015 @ 20:00 UTC

Quick recap

  • Present:

chlorelium, dg, EinMByte, hottuna, lazygravy, psi, RN, str4d, z3r0fox, zzz,

IRC 完整日志

20:01:40  <hottuna> 0) Hi
20:01:40  <hottuna> 1) I2PCon: Status update
20:01:40  <hottuna> 2) I2PCon: Liqueur license ($25)
20:01:40  <hottuna> 3) I2PCon: Allow photos without explicit consent?
20:01:40  <hottuna> 4) I2PCon: Allow videos?
20:01:40  <hottuna> 5) I2PCon: Arrange schedule of event
20:01:43  <hottuna> 6) dogecoindark.i2p home page request
20:01:54  <chlorelium> aloha!  Nice to be here with you all today.
20:02:02  <z3r0fox@oftc> o/
20:02:07  <EinMByte> Hi
20:02:13  <hottuna> ***** 0) *****
20:02:19  <hottuna> Hello@all
20:02:36  <hottuna> Does anyone have any questions or anything that should be added to the agenda?
20:02:43  <RN> hi
20:03:00  <str4d> hi
20:03:00  <lazygravy> Hi
20:03:01  <EinMByte> Do we have a livestream? (for con)
20:03:15  * RN has input for #3 but will wait till it comes up
20:03:31  <lazygravy> EinMByte: sounds like talk for #4
20:03:38  <hottuna> EinMByte, no. nothing like that has been organized. let's add that discussion to 4)
20:03:46  <hottuna> anything else?
20:03:49  <EinMByte> ok
20:04:04  <chlorelium> one thing
20:04:06  <chlorelium> donations
20:04:15  <chlorelium> I was talking with dnj about donations at i2pcon
20:04:22  <chlorelium> not sure how we're handling that
20:04:25  <chlorelium> we should hash that out today.
20:04:40  <hottuna> let's add that as 7)
20:05:08  <hottuna> ok.
20:05:13  <hottuna> **** 1) ****
20:05:19  <hottuna> 1) I2PCon: Status update
20:05:37  <hottuna> So.. the current status is that we're finalizing most aspects of the event.
20:06:00  <hottuna> We have all of our speakers verified.
20:06:16  <hottuna> The next step is constructing a schedule
20:06:27  <hottuna> And lastly making a 2nd announcement
20:06:48  <EinMByte> How many participants do we have right now? Do we know that?
20:06:52  <hottuna> Containing more details, like schedule and whatever else might be useful.
20:07:06  <EinMByte> Do we have a webpage? Do we need one?
20:07:07  <hottuna> EinMByte, that is a good question. And something chlorelium has brought up.
20:07:19  <hottuna> Hacklab can seat 40people
20:07:21  <EinMByte> Like a page on geti2pNet
20:07:32  <EinMByte> s/geti2pNet/geti2p.net
20:07:42  <hottuna> EinMByte, I've voted against making a website due to the amount of work that would entail.
20:07:44  <chlorelium> hottuna: actually got a revised number, it 48 chairs, though it's a squeze
20:08:28  <hottuna> So speaking of the number of attendees, chlorelium requested that we try to keep track of the number somehow,.
20:08:39  <EinMByte> hottuna: well, an enitre website might be a little bit too much. But at least a page with the information?
20:08:44  <hottuna> The current idea is an evenbrite page where people can sign up.
20:09:11  <chlorelium> EinMByte: I was thinking an Eventbrite page.  Mostly I don't want a situation where we seat 48 people and 200 show up :)
20:09:30  <chlorelium> Hacklab has an eventbrite account, I can set something up shortly.
20:09:39  <lazygravy> hottuna: whatever is used, it should be made sure it doesn't block tor connections. I am sure most people would like to sign up over it.
20:10:03  <hottuna> Could we squeeze more than 48 people in there if some are left to stand?
20:10:03  <EinMByte> chlorelium: well, you can always give people a token that they need to show on entrance
20:10:11  <hottuna> Just to give us some margins
20:10:16  <dg> \o.
20:10:31  <hottuna> EinMByte, we have the announcment, and we're going to make another annoucnement in the smae style as the first
20:10:37  <chlorelium> hottuna: yes, it's standing room for probably 80+
20:10:53  <chlorelium> lazygravy: noted re: TOR
20:10:56  <hottuna> other than that I don't have any volunteers for building a webpage.
20:11:44  <chlorelium> EinMByte: eventbrite generates "tickets"; doesn't need real name or real phone # though, it can be anonymous signup through tor with throwaway email
20:11:50  <chlorelium> EinMByte: so that can be the token of sorts
20:12:02  <hottuna> it sounds pretty good.
20:12:16  <EinMByte> That's good. Eventbrite seems good. But we should probably link to it on the I2P website
20:12:29  <EinMByte> (can be in a blog entry I suppose)
20:12:43  <hottuna> EinMByte, we will on the second announcement and probably from the first one too.
20:12:54  <EinMByte> ok
20:12:58  <hottuna> it's only there to give us an estimate of the number of participants
20:12:59  <RN> mmm... I suppose an I2P internal mirror of event brite would be a bit much...
20:13:21  <dg> RN: unlikely though somebody (I?) could ask. depends on how big they are, and if we have any contacts
20:13:35  <hottuna> :P
20:13:38  <hottuna> that's being pretty optimistic
20:13:56  <hottuna> we're also working on a flyer for the event
20:13:56  <RN> yeah, put that in the notes for "next time"
20:14:09  <EinMByte> So cholerlium, you set up the eventbrite page?
20:14:18  <hottuna> i was hoping to have an early version of it ready now, but will likely get to see it later tonight
20:14:19  <chlorelium> EinMByte: sure, I'll do that doay
20:14:21  <chlorelium> *today
20:14:43  <hottuna> splendid, the sooner we have a link, the sonner we can startp ublishing it
20:14:45  <chlorelium> EinMByte: I can at least generate the URL for posting, and we can populate it with content later if need be
20:15:27  <hottuna> Ok, anything else anyone would like to add?
20:15:36  <RN> sooner url is generated, sooner if it is tor-friendly can be tested
20:15:38  <EinMByte> *chlorelium
20:16:11  <z3r0fox@oftc> Regarding info in the second announcement, ppl may want to know if they'll be able to plug in
20:16:53  <hottuna> z3r0fox: nice catch
20:17:00  <chlorelium> z3r0fox: plug in to power, network, or what?
20:17:01  <lazygravy> Plug in being Internet access?
20:17:14  <chlorelium> power we have :)
20:17:18  <z3r0fox@oftc> Both...
20:17:28  <str4d> I've used Eventbrite via Tor before, it worked fine for me
20:17:30  <str4d> (back in 2013 registering for RWC 2014)
20:17:42  <RN> thx str4d
20:18:08  <chlorelium> so
20:18:12  <chlorelium> power:
20:18:17  <chlorelium> we have many large power strips
20:18:26  <RN> network? wifi?
20:18:31  <chlorelium> some of them hang from the ceiling, we could potentially run them under/behing rows of seats
20:18:37  <chlorelium> network is mostly through wifi
20:18:51  <hottuna> str4d, thanks
20:18:51  <chlorelium> we regularly handle 30+ people on the guest network
20:18:57  <chlorelium> we also have piratebox, if anyone cares :)
20:19:21  <chlorelium> I'll ask our ops person how many connections the guest network can accomodate before going to shit
20:19:27  <hottuna> ok. so we'll ahve some power at the very least and wifi for ~everyone
20:19:58  <chlorelium> yup
20:20:13  <chlorelium> this is also a helpful item in getting headcount before-hand
20:20:22  <EinMByte> good
20:20:22  <chlorelium> we can plan ahead for wireless needs
20:20:27  <hottuna> alright. anything else for 1)?
20:20:30  <dg> Somebody a few days ago by the name of 'saltire' messaged me, inquiring about setting up a relay between OFTC and IRC2P for #torontocrypto. He hasn't messaged me since, and #torontocrypto has no relay (just ChanServ and I). Would saltire, or somebody else from the TC side, be able to set one up?
20:20:48  <dg> I could probably do it because OFTC allows Tor, but I'd prefer a TC person.
20:21:13  <hottuna> dg, possibly. I know saltire from meatspace.
20:21:24  <hottuna> dg, could we save that until after the meeting?
20:21:28  <RN> mmm....   lag? or is network not available...?
20:21:31  <dg> hottuna: np
20:21:40  <hottuna> ok
20:21:45  <hottuna> **** 2) ****
20:21:48  <hottuna> 2) I2PCon: Liquor license ($25)
20:21:53  <hottuna> We're getting one.
20:21:54  <hottuna> Today.
20:22:03  <hottuna> No worries, we've got this.
20:22:06  <chlorelium> paperwork for that is almost filled out, just have to file
20:22:14  <lazygravy> :-)
20:22:21  <chlorelium> already called the LCBO, they'll have someone there until 9pm EDT to accept our app
20:22:25  <chlorelium> and actually the deadline is tomorrow night
20:22:30  <zzz> is license for consumption, sales, or both?
20:22:37  <lazygravy> BYOB?
20:22:38  <hottuna> So with the license there are some obligations we have to fulfill. Like not getting people shitfaced.
20:22:49  <hottuna> zzz, consumption.
20:22:54  <hottuna> lazygravy, no.
20:23:00  <chlorelium> license does not allow for sale.  It's for consumption only.  if we want a sale license the cost jumps to $75
20:23:11  <hottuna> having a license is not compatible with BYOB
20:23:17  <EinMByte> So that means drinks are free?
20:23:18  <chlorelium> BYOB is a no-no.  BYO is illegal at public events like this
20:23:30  <hottuna> EinMByte, yes. but only a small amount.
20:23:32  * RN pouts about non-attendance "awww man... they'll even have beer!!!"   :(
20:23:45  <hottuna> We're talking about 1-2 beers / participant depending on how many show up
20:23:46  <chlorelium> (and normally we wouldn't care, but guaranteed gov't types will show up and someone somewhere will complain about a lack of license)
20:23:59  <hottuna> And how generous eche|on is feeling
20:24:06  <zzz> fine. we have a bucket for donations (topic #7)
20:24:18  <chlorelium> We can have more alcohol for sale, but it means pitching in $50 extra for that license
20:24:24  <chlorelium> application process is essentially the same, though
20:24:25  <EinMByte> hottuna: ok. Do you have some systems for keeping track of who has already had their drink? Or do you think this won't be a problem?
20:24:41  <hottuna> zzz, as long as the donation bucket isn't explicitly for booze we should b efine
20:24:58  <hottuna> EinMByte, not really. but we don't plan on bringing tons.
20:25:02  <chlorelium> just FYI: if we take donations at the door and hand out drink tickets, we need a "sale" license since that's viewed as an indirect sale
20:25:26  <chlorelium> that doesn't mean we're prohibited from taking donations and giving drink tickets, but we can't do it in that order with a "no sale" license o_0
20:25:29  <chlorelium> liquor laws are silly
20:25:59  <EinMByte> hottuna: let's just assume honesty then
20:25:59  <chlorelium> EinMByte: I think honesty is a good policy :)
20:25:59  <hottuna> EinMByte, that's the idea.
20:25:59  <hottuna> Anything else on 2)?
20:26:14  <chlorelium> just a note
20:26:21  <chlorelium> once we get the license (in a week)
20:26:32  <chlorelium> we'll have to go to the LCBO with the license to do the purchasing
20:26:45  <chlorelium> whomever is bringing alcohol can't just pick up a bunch and then bring it
20:26:58  <chlorelium> there's something about the LCBO keeping track of sales
20:27:15  <hottuna> ok. that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
20:27:21  <chlorelium> I think they want to make sure you're not buying $1K of beer for a single event :)
20:27:30  <chlorelium> the license will probably get mailed to the lab
20:27:35  <chlorelium> I can get in touch when it does.
20:27:44  <hottuna> splendid
20:28:07  <hottuna> **** 3) ****
20:28:08  <hottuna> 3) I2PCon: Allow photos without explicit consent?
20:28:13  <chlorelium> so
20:28:23  <hottuna> Does anyone have a strong opinion?
20:28:31  <chlorelium> Hacklab default policy has almost always been "not without explicit consent"
20:28:47  <chlorelium> we can suspend that, however there's a good chance there will be members in the space who are not there for the con who might not want their pictures taken
20:29:04  <hottuna> alright, I guess that makes this choice a whole lot easier for us.
20:29:19  <chlorelium> We could have colour-coded nametags or something to communicate consent, if people like that idea.
20:29:31  <hottuna> Does anyone have any problems with not allowing photos to be taken?
20:29:41  <hottuna> (without explicit consent)
20:30:26  <hottuna> Does anyone want to add anything to 3)?
20:30:46  <dg> 3) being photo consent?
20:30:49  <str4d> I think explicit consent is fine
20:30:52  <hottuna> yes
20:30:53  <z3r0fox@oftc> It'll have to be made clear at the door, because phones
20:31:07  <lazygravy> str4d: that method seemed to work good at HOPE.
20:31:10  <EinMByte> I agree, some people will not want their picture taken
20:31:20  <dg> As long as explicit consent is fine and there's an understanding that people will remove pictures if asked
20:31:23  <chlorelium> z3r0fox: sure, we'll make a sign
20:31:27  <RN> yes
20:31:33  <RN> I missed all of three
20:31:44  <hottuna> excellent
20:31:56  <str4d> The nametag idea is a nice one. Maybe the Eventbrite page could have a tickbox for consent (yes/no/undecided)
20:32:14  * psi scrolls
20:32:26  <chlorelium> str4d: that's been done for non-hacklab events before
20:32:37  <EinMByte> str4d: good idea
20:32:39  <chlorelium> it doesn't even have to be a nametag, so much as a coloured piece of paper
20:32:46  <str4d> Nametag with green == fine. Without == must ask.
20:32:50  <str4d> chlorelium: nice
20:32:53  <RN> I have something to add to three and will just spam-paste it about 9 lines...
20:33:07  <hottuna> str4d, chlorelium: i'm not sure I would like to organize all of that I'd rather keep it barebones and like a simple rule
20:33:10  <RN> make an itoopie mask that people who don't want to be photographed can hold up in front of their face when picture is taken....
20:33:10  <RN> easier than trusting someone else to photoshop the itoopie mask in later
20:33:10  <RN> mascott exposure == good pr | fun | inexpensive
20:33:10  <RN> requrired materials (assembly requrired)
20:33:10  <RN> paper plates
20:33:11  <RN> yellow spray paint
20:33:15  <RN> large tounge depressors
20:33:17  <RN> staples (that go through wood) or glue/tape
20:33:19  <RN> black marker or black paint & brush
20:33:39  <hottuna> RN: If anyone wants make a mask, that would be perfect!
20:33:46  <chlorelium> :D
20:33:49  <RN> give them out at the door... it starts the conversation about photos
20:33:55  <psi> are masks allowed still?
20:33:59  <hottuna> i'm putting it in the sure, why not bin.
20:34:02  <psi> like, anti protest laws etc
20:34:12  <dg> I imagine it's ok in a private space
20:34:17  <hottuna> we're not protesting. I think. and also indoors.
20:34:26  <psi> okay
20:34:27  <hottuna> anyway, can we move on?
20:34:35  <hottuna> **** 4) ****
20:34:35  <str4d> And it's not a mask as much as a masque
20:34:48  <hottuna> 4) I2PCon: Allow videos?
20:34:48  <hottuna>            Video livestream?
20:34:58  <chlorelium> psi: the mask laws don't apply
20:35:01  <dg> Yes yes yes yes yes if somebody is willing to do it.
20:35:07  <chlorelium> ianal, but I'm pretty sure of that one :P
20:35:13  <str4d> Videos / livestream partly ties in to #3
20:35:18  <lazygravy> Will the speakers be okay with this?
20:35:25  <dg> Make it clear that it's being recorded and indicate where people can sit if they want to be free from cameras
20:35:26  <hottuna> I don't think we have anyone willing to do all of the video work.
20:35:31  <hottuna> Nor do we have the equipment.
20:35:34  <z3r0fox@oftc> Since the expert videographer couldn't make it, I could set a couple HD cams up to point at the presenters to save the presentations for later. But there were some reervations.
20:35:37  <EinMByte> I think we definitely need a lifestream, as I suggested earlier
20:35:37  <dg> zzz mentioned something for Twitter
20:35:46  <EinMByte> *live
20:35:48  <RN> I'm not talking about wearing a mask... but I think we've moved on...
20:35:52  <str4d> dg: Periscope
20:35:57  <dg> str4d: That's it
20:35:59  <zzz> I propose to just periscope the talks from the @i2p account from my phone. I have a baby tripod and phone mount
20:36:25  <zzz> a real tripod would be better if anybody can bring one
20:36:29  <str4d> Does Periscope allow video to be saved, or purely an ephemeral livestream?
20:36:41  <RN> is periscope persistant?
20:36:44  <zzz> dunno
20:36:50  <hottuna> z3r0fox: if I could leave the responsibility of making video happen on your shoulders (including the work afterwards)
20:36:56  <dg> I might be able to just dump the stream anyway
20:36:59  <hottuna> i would be pretty happy about it
20:37:15  <z3r0fox@oftc> zzz: Is that something that could be good enough to edit for Youtube? I have 1 tripod, two HD cams, can get another tripod for 2 camera shoot if needed then I'd volunteer to editand put on Youtube or distibute provately, whatever
20:37:26  <hottuna> if not and no one else is stepping up, we're not going to have video.
20:37:50  <psi> if we do video we should also have an eventual i2p torrent
20:38:11  <hottuna> z3r0fox: so that means you'd go the full length and organize all of it?
20:38:14  <zzz> i've just played with periscope for a couple minutes. Not an expert.
20:38:16  * RN agrees with psi
20:38:29  <z3r0fox@oftc> hottuna: Yeah, it's not a big deal, simple edits. I just wouldn't want to lose document of presentations, assuming presenters are okay with being filmed.
20:38:34  <zzz> If we have nobody to do anything better, periscope is our fallback
20:38:38  <hottuna> psi, I agree about distributing it through bittorrent.
20:38:39  <dg> Woo! livestreamer (a Python tool) supports Periscope (http://docs.livestreamer.io/plugin_matrix.html). I and others could easily dump the stream to disk with it.
20:38:41  <iRelay> Title: Plugins Livestreamer 1.12.2 documentation (at docs.livestreamer.io)
20:39:09  <RN> nice find dg
20:39:13  <z3r0fox@oftc> hottuna: Yeah, not much equipment to set up. I'll talkk with chlorelium about sightlines and warning people about being filmed offline
20:39:13  <hottuna> dg, livestreaming is a bit more work to make actually work.
20:39:28  <str4d> Okay, so we have zzz's phone and two HD cams from z3r0fox. More than enough to get video
20:39:34  <hottuna> z3r0fox
20:39:35  <hottuna> sounds good
20:39:37  <dg> hottuna: Yes, but if we have to use periscope via zzzphone, persistence isn't an issue.
20:39:42  <RN> although a secondary recording kept on the periscoping device would be ideal in case of stream outages....
20:39:46  <str4d> Pertinent issues:
20:40:01  <str4d> a) Each speaker would need to give consent/no
20:40:15  <hottuna> re live streaming:  Does anyone want to assume the responsibility of making that happen?
20:40:44  <str4d> b) Cameras need to be set up such that they either only film the speakers, or provide plenty of blindspots for attendees who don't want to be filmed.
20:40:46  <hottuna> str4d, a) I think we could handle that at the event (if we don't have any complaints earlier)
20:40:49  * RN passes note to hottuna and chlorelium "make sure to give zzz's device highest QOS and firewall clearance... "  ;)
20:40:57  <chlorelium> str4d: that's doable
20:41:04  <chlorelium> lol
20:41:09  <str4d> c) We would also want to record the presentation itself, via a screen recorder
20:41:10  <zzz> I'll do periscope. with my fancy $1 tripod and $4 mount
20:41:11  <chlorelium> I'll talk to ops :)
20:41:16  <dg> zzz: showoff
20:41:26  <str4d> (so it can be spliced into the final edit)
20:41:34  <z3r0fox@oftc> str4d: Good point about the slide decks, hmm
20:41:55  <hottuna> I guess a screen recorder could be set up.
20:42:14  <dg> decks is going to be easy, we can just ask them all to provide at the end
20:42:17  <str4d> It *could* be handled post- if we had the slides themselves, but probably easier to just edit a third video stream in rather than inserting slides
20:42:19  <z3r0fox@oftc> str4d: I could just use the slides probably unless the presentation's animated
20:42:25  <hottuna> z3r0fox: could the video be made without a screen recorder (but with the presentations crammed in there somehow)?
20:42:34  <hottuna> z3r0fox: perfect
20:42:55  <hottuna> So far I haven't had any takers on organizing live-streaming
20:42:56  <z3r0fox@oftc> hottuna: yeah I would just pull them in as images on another video 'channel' in kdenlive
20:43:06  <dg> At CCC, the recorders tend to just alternate between the speaker and the presentation as for when it is pertinent.
20:43:11  <zzz> if you all want to get your questions answered about periscope, install it on your phone and play around with it. follow the @i2p acct and i'll do a test later in the week
20:43:13  <EinMByte> slides should probably be uploaded somewhere
20:43:15  <str4d> yeah, could just display static slide from PDF/PowerPoint/whatever while playing audio from another video stream
20:43:20  <hottuna> So unless that changes, we won't have it. Which isn't a problem.
20:43:24  <dg> They show the slide for long enough for you to read, show the speaker when they get excited/haven't changed slide in a while, then go back to the slide, etc
20:43:32  <dg> hottuna: zzz is doing periscope
20:43:45  <hottuna> zzz, are you doing periscope?
20:43:49  <zzz> your phone will bleep at you when I go live ;)
20:43:50  <dg> yes
20:43:56  <dg> <&zzz> I'll do periscope. with my fancy $1 tripod and $4 mount
20:44:04  <zzz> yes
20:45:06  <zzz> if zerofox has a tripod for me that would be even better. would keep it from being knocked over, but not req'd
20:46:23  <z3r0fox@oftc> zzz: Just have one at the moment, I was going to look into getting a second one used for cam 2 (second shot angle)... but I may have oneof those small tabletop ones somewhere as well
20:47:00  <zzz> ok. bring duct tape ;)
20:47:11  <hottuna> ok. thats confirmation enough
20:47:13  <hottuna> i'm leaving it in your hands
20:47:13  <hottuna> alright, anything else regarding 4)?
20:47:13  <hottuna> *** 5) ****
20:47:13  <hottuna> 5) I2PCon: Arrange schedule of event
20:47:13  <hottuna> I can't say I ahve a lot to say about it yet, but the contents of day#1&&day#2 is as follows
20:47:14  <hottuna> 15 Aug
20:47:14  <hottuna> tentative time: 2PM - midnight Not necessarily in this order
20:47:15  <hottuna>     Nick Johnston: "TOS and PII - What happens to your data when the company gets bought and sold?" Different terms of service from popular web apps
20:47:18  <hottuna>     Keynote: Guest speaker 1 (1 hour) (before cryptoparty or after?) "Privacy vs. Intelligence - Why can't we all just get along?"
20:47:21  <hottuna>     Dinner break - where/when?
20:47:21  <hottuna>     Short I2P General presentation, by zzz: "Growing the Network, Spreading the Word"
20:47:23  <hottuna>     Cryptoparty presentation, by ?? (j?)
20:47:23  <hottuna>     Cryptoparty, by j (how long?)
20:47:25  <hottuna> 16 Aug
20:47:25  <hottuna> tentative time: 12AM - 8 PM Not necessarily in this order
20:47:26  <hottuna>     Confirmed guest speaker 2 (1 hour) "I2P Monitoring and Filtration" (requested time: early)
20:47:29  <hottuna>     Confirmed guest speaker 1 (1 hour) "Anonymity protocols and malware - Why they fail"
20:47:31  <hottuna>     I2P Technical presentation, by zzz: "The Connection Limit Challenge"
20:47:33  <hottuna>     I2P Technical discussion, led by (zzz??) Topics TBD
20:47:34  <hottuna>     I2P App Dev Intro, by psi
20:47:35  <hottuna>     The Agony and the Ecstasy of I2P on Android, by str4d (via skype)
20:47:36  <hottuna>     i2pd presentation by orignal Title: "i2pd"; requested time: 15 minutes
20:47:38  <hottuna>     Roadmap meeting. led by zzz: When is 1.0? Crypto migration schedule (RI, snark) (EC vs. Ed), LS2, NTCP2, new DH, Java 7, SAM 3.2, Jetty 9, 12-month plan
20:47:41  <hottuna>     Organizational meeting, led by zzz: Finances, roles, PR, servers and services, CCC planning
20:47:43  <hottuna>     Dinner break - where/when? Order sandwich/pizza delivery? Guest speakers probably need to be before the break, as they may be flying out.
20:47:44  <hottuna> 
20:47:45  <hottuna> forgive the slightly chaotic nature of it at the moment
20:47:46  <hottuna> sorting it out and fixing it is what's going to happen next
20:47:51  <hottuna> there's not much to add to 5), but now you all know what I know.
20:47:51  <hottuna> does anyone have anything else to add to 5)?
20:48:13  <hottuna> everyone is aware of what they're going to do/speak about?
20:48:34  <dg> is orignal OK now?
20:48:36  <psi> i still need to flesh out my talk all the way
20:48:37  <EinMByte> seems good, should be online somewhere though
20:48:46  <hottuna> dg, he was always ok for a short talk?
20:48:49  <dg> EinMByte: it is
20:48:57  <psi> i was thinking workshop but it seems like it's a talk
20:49:01  <dg> hottuna: he was reluctant to speak at all, and wasn't sure what to say
20:49:13  <dg> I think he might need a bit of prompting for subjects
20:49:19  <psi> probably easier to do a talk
20:49:20  <EinMByte> dg: link?
20:49:34  <hottuna> psi, would a short talk be ok? we could move it to the crypto party part of this?
20:49:59  <hottuna> dg, ok. I'm going to have to confirm orignal a second time.
20:50:07  <hottuna> i will do it OOB from this meeting
20:50:19  <dg> EinMByte: http://trac.i2p2.i2p/wiki/MeetupToronto2015
20:50:20  <psi> cryptoparty time makesss sense
20:50:28  <dg> i2p2.de if you're in the clearnet, but why are you? ;)
20:50:34  <EinMByte> dg: thanks
20:51:19  <hottuna> ok. next topic?
20:51:30  <chlorelium> question: how much of this is i2pcon and how much is cryptoparty
20:51:38  <psi> for my workshop i was going to have people write the example echo client serve
20:51:41  <hottuna> ehm. good question.
20:51:52  <chlorelium> like, are we running a cryptoparty as a separate event, or are we just having the TC folks give presentations, or what?
20:51:54  <hottuna> we don't have enough crypto party stations at this point
20:52:02  <hottuna> so it's going to be heavily I2PCon
20:52:13  <hottuna> and a crypto party to the etent we can find crypto party volunteers
20:52:31  <dg> if anyone is willing to help others setup popular crypto tools like OTR, obviously I2P, Tor, etc., then that'd be appreciated
20:52:36  <chlorelium> so this sounds like i2pcon with some involvement from TC, rather than one event nested inside another
20:52:41  <dg> Tails and that sort of thing.
20:52:59  <hottuna> chlorelium, the crypto party bit of day#1 will probably be scheduled for the lunch break and onkly be like an hour or two
20:53:51  <chlorelium> hmm
20:53:52  <chlorelium> okay
20:54:09  <chlorelium> so hottuna mentioned irl just now that more volunteers are needed for the cryptoparty aspect
20:54:22  <chlorelium> TC is the best for that, I'm not able to help so much in that area
20:55:06  <chlorelium> not sure how everyone wants to run that.
20:55:42  <EinMByte> Can we go to 6)? I have some comments and must leave soon
20:55:47  <chlorelium> you could run the cryptoparty as sort of a socialization session
20:55:51  <chlorelium> sure
20:55:56  <hottuna> EinMByte,  sure
20:56:03  <hottuna> **** 6) ****
20:56:08  <hottuna> 6) dogecoindark.i2p home page request
20:56:17  <EinMByte> The website uses a lot of "external" stuff
20:56:36  <EinMByte> That is, it uses resources from various non-i2p websites
20:56:48  <dg> The owner didn't really get the problem with that, but after speaking with him, he agreed that it's problematic in some cases. He felt it was ok to keep Facebook/Twitter share buttons.
20:57:01  <hottuna> zzz, EinMByte
20:57:05  <zzz> this is my agenda item, hottuna may i have the floor?
20:57:25  <hottuna> zzz, please
20:57:28  <EinMByte> Also, we already have anoncoin.i2p. Do we really need more cryptocurrency links?
20:57:43  <zzz> thank you hottuna
20:57:53  <zzz> the request is here http://zzz.i2p/topics/236?page=2#p9999
20:58:03  <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: How to get my Eepsite added to the Router Console home page (at zzz.i2p)
20:58:06  <zzz> in the form of answers to the questions in the first post of that thread
20:58:16  <zzz> is the operator of the site here?
20:58:29  <dg> no, i've pinged him in another chan, he's been idle for 5m so give him a moment
20:59:50  <EinMByte> Note also that the website needs javascript to load, which may be a problem for some people (like me)
21:00:11  <zzz> ok, while we wait, does anybody have any comments pro or con?
21:00:48  <hottuna> i don't really know what the website is
21:01:08  <dg> It's a cryptocoin which supports I2P
21:01:24  <hottuna> is it straight up dogecoin?
21:01:34  <zzz> re: 1MB's comments, we don't have external resource links or js use as criteria for rejection at the moment
21:01:37  <dg> no, it's dogecoin forked to have I2P support
21:02:05  <EinMByte> The main problem (appart from technical stuff which can be fixed of course) I see is that we already have anoncoin on the homepage
21:02:09  <zzz> let's go back to the basics. is this of general interest to the i2p community?
21:02:11  <EinMByte> which is a very similar project
21:02:29  <EinMByte> So I'm not sure if we need another cryptocurrency on the homepage
21:02:52  <dg> "We need more of everything" -- I don't know if it's a bad thing to have more than one. Got to account for the bus, and the bus almost hit Meeh.. he was gone for a while and Anoncoin is only recovering now.
21:03:06  <zzz> we don't ever want just one of anything, and ANC is on life support anyway
21:03:26  <EinMByte> I agree that "we need more of everything". But I don't think that applies to the homepage
21:04:09  <zzz> does anybody here use dogecoindark?
21:04:41  <zzz> anybody have any other comments?
21:04:43  <dg> abyss does, but he's not in here (and doesn't appear to be around at the moment). He runs a market.
21:04:52  <dg> I'm on the fence. I don't really mind.
21:05:42  <zzz> anybody strongly in favor or strongly against?
21:05:52  <EinMByte> Well, if there is interest from other people I'm ok with it BUT only if the external resource issue is resolved
21:05:58  <hottuna> im mildy in favor
21:06:08  <EinMByte> (until then, strongly against, after that neutral)
21:06:27  <psi> can i be strongly indifferent? :D
21:06:34  <hottuna> doesn't hurt. I quess the fact that is depends on lots of external stuff is kind of bad. And there should be some kind of warning perhaps
21:06:38  <EinMByte> That said, there should be a ruled wrt to external resources because it's a pretty serious problem
21:07:12  <zzz> so you think home page eepsites should not load clearnet css/images? should that be a criterion?
21:07:32  <hottuna> possibly?
21:07:45  <EinMByte> zzz: I think no eepsite should do that yes. Especially not the ones on the home page
21:08:13  <dg> it shouldn't be a blanket. if they have a good excuse we might allow it, not that I can think of any
21:08:13  <EinMByte> In this case, it's probably not intentionally malicious
21:08:22  <EinMByte> But it could be
21:09:25  <RN> I agree that outernet resources should be strongly discouraged
21:09:25  <zzz> it's not a good user experience though
21:09:25  <zzz> ok let's table this topic without a final decision for now
21:09:25  <zzz> back to you hottuna thank you
21:09:25  <hottuna> ok :)
21:09:39  <hottuna> **** 7) ****
21:09:41  <hottuna> 7) I2PCon: donations
21:09:51  <EinMByte> Didn't zzz already comment on this?
21:09:57  <EinMByte> Anyway, bye.
21:10:05  <hottuna> EinMByte, cya
21:10:42  <chlorelium> So originally we were told that all donations collected during the con would be given to the hacklab
21:10:54  <chlorelium> this came from dnj, through f3ndot
21:11:02  <chlorelium> dnj and I discussed this the other day as well
21:11:19  <chlorelium> It's not actually a big deal though; if i2p wants some/all of the donations, we can arrange for that
21:11:21  <zzz> I don't recall anybody promising that
21:11:26  <dg> nor do I
21:12:29  <chlorelium> I'm just going to have to tell the hacklab membership.  I doubt they'll be particularly upset
21:12:29  <zzz> hottuna, did you make that promise?
21:12:29  <chlorelium> hmm, interesting.  so there's a bit of broken communication somewhere.
21:12:29  <dg> I think it's reasonable to give a contribution for the services but I don't remember a commitment
21:12:29  <hottuna> no.  It must've come up between dnj and f3ndot
21:12:29  <hottuna> I havent really touched the topic of donations before
21:12:39  <hottuna> So, what are our requirements for donations?
21:12:42  <hottuna> Do we have ny?
21:12:43  <hottuna> *any
21:12:43  <hottuna> Do we care?
21:12:55  <hottuna> Could we have separate donation boxes?
21:12:59  <zzz> i propose we have a single bucket and we split it 3 ways i2p/TC/hacklab after covering booze costs
21:13:13  <hottuna> Or one with which we split?
21:13:23  <dg> boxes sounds good but risks saturation of any funds.. a bucket would be good
21:13:25  <hottuna> zzz, that sounds good to me.
21:13:37  <hottuna> :p
21:13:37  <chlorelium> zzz: if we have the donation bucket cover booze before it's split, we need a $75 event permit
21:13:38  <dg> i'm sure the topic of I2P finance/project scale will come up in the talks which means people may be willing to donate something anyway
21:13:41  <zzz> we are paying for the hacklab services already
21:13:54  <hottuna> does anyone mind the idea of splitting the contents of the donation box?
21:13:57  <chlorelium> ontario law is that the hosting org needs to absorb all alcohol costs
21:14:10  <zzz> who is the hosting org?
21:14:12  <dg> if people really want to give to us, they can do that
21:14:19  <dg> zzz: oh. then between i2p/tc depending on how much tc helps with
21:14:41  <zzz> whose name on the permit?
21:14:44  <chlorelium> zzz: hacklab is on the application
21:14:47  <hottuna> so the donations aren't tied to booze. and let's not say that they are. it would just be a problem for everyone involved.
21:15:51  <zzz> yeah but you realize we can't give you 1/3 of gross
21:17:07  <hottuna> zzz, are you saying that we don't want to hand 1/3rd over to hacklab?
21:17:07  <zzz> so hacklab, not i2p, is buying all the beer?
21:17:07  <zzz> who is buying the beer?
21:17:07  <hottuna> technically yes, practically no.
21:17:08  <chlorelium> ^ this
21:17:18  <hottuna> eche|on, or someone will walk to the booze-store with the permit and buy what we need.
21:17:26  <zzz> ok then lets not get all techical/practical about donations
21:17:46  <str4d> Okay, so hacklab is being paid for venue hire, and will increase their invoice to cover their beer costs, no?
21:17:59  <hottuna> str4d, no.
21:18:09  <hottuna> we're paying for beer.
21:18:11  <str4d> Then I'm confused
21:18:20  <hottuna> it will come out of eche|ons pocket
21:18:27  <str4d> hottuna: I was speaking technically
21:18:34  <hottuna> hacklab isn't monetarily involved in it
21:18:43  <chlorelium> str4d: that's understandable, the permitting process is ridiculous.  incidentally, I apologize in advance for how complicated all of this is.
21:18:44  <str4d> (since they are required by law to cover it, no?)
21:19:09  <hottuna> ah. technically they're buying booze, practically we (echelon) are
21:19:17  <str4d> I just want to make sure that asses are covered
21:19:21  <str4d> K
21:19:26  <chlorelium> pretty much.  you can take the permit to the LCBO, or we can do it
21:19:30  <chlorelium> as long as the costs are covered.
21:19:52  <hottuna> i think we have this sorted out well enough.
21:19:55  <str4d> So on any invoice, it would appear as "venue: $X. booze: $Y. Already paid: $Y. Due: $X."
21:19:59  <str4d> K
21:20:03  <chlorelium> you're renting the lab space, essentially, which in this case makes you a representative of the venue.  or that's what I'm going to say if anyone asks.
21:20:24  <chlorelium> str4d: sure.  we generally don't invoice people, but that can be arranged no problem.
21:20:29  <zzz> so i'm back to my original proposal, we have a single donation bucket, and that above and beyond certain (cough) expenses, we graciously split the rest, if any, 3 ways with TC and hacklab
21:21:16  <str4d> chlorelium: not sure if invoices are required by law, is the thing. You could say better than me :)
21:21:31  <hottuna> zzz, do we really want to go about it that way.
21:21:33  <zzz> assuming TC wants any $$
21:21:38  <hottuna> i'd rather do it properly.
21:21:44  <dg> what is properly?
21:22:02  <zzz> ^^ what is properly, indeed?
21:22:02  <chlorelium> zzz: incidentally, how much did you discuss renting the lab space for back in april (or whenever this was worked out)?
21:22:05  <zzz> let's hear your proposal
21:22:15  <hottuna> properly as not have any boze money taken out of the donation box.
21:22:21  <zzz> chlorelium, tuna did the negotiations
21:22:22  <hottuna> my proposal is we split it 3 ways
21:23:01  <zzz> if you don't want to take booze money taken out of donations, then let's spend $50 more and sell the beer
21:23:17  <hottuna> does anyone want to stand there and sell beer?
21:23:42  <zzz> otherwise i2p is giving several dollars to TC and hacklab for every beer that we give away!
21:23:43  <str4d> If we spend $50 more, then we *can* take booze money out of donations
21:24:02  <str4d> (IIUC)
21:24:16  <zzz> or else have three buckets
21:24:23  <hottuna> str4d, I guess that is correct. but do you really know that we'll get 50$ in donations?
21:24:39  <hottuna> i think we're overthinking this.
21:25:05  <hottuna> the donations are _not_ going to be anywhere near the expenses we've had putting this event on
21:25:33  <zzz> giving 2/3 of our donations away starting at first dollar, when we're paying for the beer is a terrible idea
21:25:34  <hottuna> we're talking about $50-$100 worth of beer.
21:25:38  <hottuna> that's not a lot.
21:25:43  <chlorelium> hey
21:25:45  <chlorelium> so
21:25:47  <chlorelium> let me check the regulations
21:25:54  <chlorelium> I think I need to re-read some wording
21:26:05  <chlorelium> essentially, we can't tell people to donate to cover beer cost
21:26:18  <chlorelium> if people donate and we take money out of the pot to cover that, it might be fine
21:26:26  <chlorelium> the wording is ambiguous in the doc I read
21:26:31  <chlorelium> as for splitting the pot
21:26:52  <hottuna> chlorelium, if that is legal, let's do that.
21:27:04  <chlorelium> do it whichever way you would like.  I'm not hung up on it.  $150/day was pledged by i2p/tc for use of the space, and I'm happy for that
21:28:17  <str4d> There's also the fact to consider that hacklab is being paid for services rendered, vs. TC and I2P effectively volunteering.
21:29:30  <chlorelium> str4d: absolutely
21:29:40  <chlorelium> okay, here's the wording from the agco permit.
21:29:44  <chlorelium> Will alcohol be sold?
21:29:44  <chlorelium> You must answer “yes” to this question if you are
21:29:44  <chlorelium> collecting money for alcohol either directly, through
21:29:44  <chlorelium> the sale of alcohol or drink tickets at the event (e.g.
21:29:46  <chlorelium> cash bar, sale of drink tickets), or indirectly through
21:29:49  <chlorelium> the sale of admission, membership fees or the collection
21:29:51  <chlorelium> of money for alcohol before the event.
21:29:54  <chlorelium> so I think we're in the clear
21:30:08  <hottuna> So it's all basically fine.
21:30:19  <chlorelium> I called AGCO about this and they gave me a really wishy-washy answer.  so all is well, I think.
21:30:32  <hottuna> (donations - beer_costs) / 3
21:30:40  <dg> I don't think hacklab should get any donation cut
21:30:51  <dg> They're being helpful but we are paying them for services
21:31:01  <hottuna> dg, they're not making a lot of money here.
21:31:22  <dg> Can we pay more for the beer licence, include that in what we pay them, and split donations between I2P and TC (depending on how much help TC gives)?
21:32:30  <hottuna> dg, if we do a donation box, it's ok to subtract money from the donated amount to cover beer costs according to the text above
21:32:39  <hottuna> so we dont need a fancier license
21:32:44  <dg> oh, cool
21:32:45  <str4d> So while I have no objections to hacklab receiving some of the donations, perhaps the split could be e.g. 1:2:2?
21:32:51  <dg> (I didn't get any text)
21:32:56  <hottuna> I would like to give them a part of the donations since A) they were promised it (by J it would seem)
21:33:05  <zzz> this is going to be a lot more than $50 worth of beer. I'm going to drink $50 worth myself.
21:33:20  <dg> that's what I thought ;). people at hacker cons like beer. a lot
21:33:44  * fox reminds you all not to cheap out on beer or buy anything american
21:34:07  <chlorelium> so hottuna's laptop just craped out
21:34:21  <dg> let's not honor other people's promises
21:34:27  <chlorelium> so I just talked to two other hacklab board members
21:34:33  <zzz> I don't give j's promises to hacklab any weight, no.
21:34:49  <chlorelium> we're cool with just $300 for the space usage, and covering the $25 alcohol license if that's cool
21:34:53  <hottuna> B) because they're part of the same community we are.
21:34:57  <chlorelium> you can keep the donations
21:35:12  <chlorelium> and sorry for all of the miscommuncation :(
21:35:18  <hottuna> i would still like to split it 3 ways.
21:35:29  <hottuna> does anyone else want to split it 3 ways?
21:35:35  <zzz> I'm ok with 1/1/1 split after (cough) costs
21:35:44  <zzz> and with covering their $25
21:35:50  <str4d> hottuna: I suggested maybe 1/2/2 split
21:35:50  <hottuna> zzz, that's what im proposing
21:36:07  <str4d> (unless people don't like hard math :P)
21:36:17  <hottuna> str4d, let's not do anything fancy here.
21:36:28  <hottuna> i would prefer an equal split
21:36:43  <hottuna> doing anything else just implies a bunch of stuff.
21:37:23  <hottuna> have a managed to convince everyone of a (donations-beer)/3 split?
21:37:28  <chlorelium> to be clear: I'm very happy to host y'all here, I just wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page.  I don't want to cause any rancor.  The love of money is the root of all evil :)
21:37:40  <dg> ok, but let's have an emphasis on I2P's size and need for more donations during talks. People can seek out our donation info if they want to
21:37:59  <hottuna> Sure, let's cram it in there somewhere.
21:38:25  <hottuna> str4d, dg, zzz: is that ok?
21:38:34  <str4d> So to summarize, we have hacklab saying "We don't need donations", hottuna saying "You *will* take donations", and everyone else not really minding either way? :P
21:38:53  <hottuna> yes. that sums it up.
21:38:54  <str4d> For the record, I don't mind a 1/1/1 split
21:38:59  <chlorelium> str4d: pretty much :P
21:39:00  <dg> hottuna: ok from me
21:39:00  <hottuna> want to do it my way?
21:39:23  <str4d> (after (cough) costs)
21:39:23  <hottuna> ok.
21:39:29  <hottuna> yes.
21:39:31  <hottuna> ok.
21:39:41  <hottuna> ok I tihnk we're done here.
21:39:46  <hottuna> anything else?
21:39:51  <dg> in general or i2pcon?
21:39:56  <hottuna> either
21:40:02  <str4d> psi: you still around?
21:40:06  <zzz> yes
21:40:19  <dg> ok, i2pconish:
21:40:20  <dg> <+dg> Somebody a few days ago by the name of 'saltire' messaged me, inquiring about setting up a relay between OFTC and IRC2P for #torontocrypto. He hasn't messaged me since, and #torontocrypto has no relay (just ChanServ and I). Would saltire, or somebody else from the TC side, be able to set one up?
21:40:22  <dg> <+dg> I could probably do it because OFTC allows Tor, but I'd prefer a TC person.
21:40:38  <dg> hottuna: Could you speak to saltire for a follow-up?
21:40:43  <psi> str4d: yes
21:41:17  <hottuna> dg.. sure
21:41:20  <hottuna> one se
21:41:22  <hottuna> c
21:41:38  <str4d> If saltire was asking if they could set it up, they only have to ask the network ops and the owner of the #torontocrypto channel on Irc2P
21:41:45  <zzz> reminder that relays to irc2p require irc op permission (although dg is one)
21:41:52  <hottuna> dg, I pinged him.
21:42:01  <hottuna> im leaving the rest of this up to the two of you.
21:42:18  <hottuna> saltire is typically available on #torontocrypto @ OFTC
21:42:20  <dg> thanks, and thx for the reminder, i would like to liaison with them if they could get back to me
21:42:43  <dg> If nobody's too exhausted from 3h of I2PCon and donation shoving...
21:42:48  <hottuna> :P
21:44:00  <hottuna> ok
21:44:00  <hottuna> this meeting is officially over
21:44:00  <hottuna> baf's the meeting hammer