I2P dev meeting, March 15, 2005

Quick recap

  • Present:

ant, bla, cervantes, detonate, frosk, godmode0, jrandom, legion, Myo9, newkid, polecat, Pseudonym, Ragnarok, smeghead, Teal, thetower,

Full IRC Log

13:07 < jrandom> 0) hi
13:07 < jrandom> 1) Net status
13:07 < jrandom> 2) Feedspace
13:07 < jrandom> 3) ???
13:07 < jrandom> 0) hi
13:07  * jrandom waves
13:07 < jrandom> weekly status notes up @ http://dev.i2p.net/pipermail/i2p/2005-March/000649.html
13:08 < Teal> hi
13:08 < jrandom> (yeah, i was late this time, but close!)
13:08 < frosk> hi
13:08 < jrandom> might as well jump on in to 1) net status
13:08 < jrandom> the net, its, like, up, 'n stuff
13:09 < jrandom> overall throughput is still down where it was before, with a substantial number of dropped messages & fragments
13:09 < bla> hi
13:09 < ant> <dm> bad
13:09 < Teal> any clues as to why ?
13:10 < jrandom> Teal: sure, read the status notes?  :)
13:10 <+detonate> hi
13:11 < jrandom> there are still ~ 25 people on older builds, and likely, they'll be staying there until we drop them off the net
13:11 < jrandom> in any case, we should be able to work around them, so having them here is actually helpful, i suppose
13:11 < jrandom> (though it'd be nice if they upgraded... ;)
13:11 < cervantes> (hi)
13:11 < frosk> those are probably sheeple who installed i2p because they read about it somewhere and wanted to try "anonymous p2p"
13:12 < ant> <BS314159> yeah, if network quality degradation can happen due to bugs, it's possible due to malice
13:12 < newkid> This is the first meeting I am in, but I read the notes, and the problem seems related to what I explained before the meeting
13:12 < Pseudonym> do we know what specific probblems the old nodes are causing and why?
13:12 < jrandom> bs314159: never attribute to malice what can be attributed to jrandom writing bad code ;)
13:13 < jrandom> Pseudonym: yeah, see the changelog
13:13 < newkid> I run two nodes, milliseconds apart, and they don't regard eacxh other "fast" more of the time
13:13 < jrandom> right newkid 
13:13 < jrandom> the speed calculator as deployed is, well, pretty shitty
13:13 < jrandom> it doesnt gather enough data to have any sort of confidence in the values
13:13 < bla> Hmm.. That's bad at best ;)
13:13 < jrandom> its about as meaningless as the "instantaneous rates" you can see on /oldconsole.jsp
13:14 < jrandom> i'm trying out some new calculators, and there is an improvement, but there are problems in the algorithm
13:14 < jrandom> namely, it won't let high capacity peers turn into fast peers without those fast peers dropping from the high capacity group
13:15 < bla> jrandom: Does every node get "fastness" data for the other nodes directly ("P2P"), or via tunnels?
13:15 < jrandom> (aka the first K peers placed in the fast group will stay in the fast group)
13:15 < jrandom> bla: tunnels, we cannot trust direct measurement, as that'd allow trivial anonymity attacks
13:15 < godmode0> "alfYl6RvHzw="  =   "21538-900"
13:15 < godmode0> "alV9ye/y/Us="  =  "23565-200"
13:15 < godmode0> its is sha1 ?
13:15 < jrandom> (e.g. be really really slow to everyone except Alice)
13:15 <+detonate> they'll stay there for the lifetime of the router?
13:15 < jrandom> godmode0: we're in a meeting right now
13:16 < godmode0> ops sorry
13:16 < jrandom> detonate: until one of them failed or rejected a tunnel (aka their capacity rank drops them from the high capacity group)
13:16 <+detonate> ok
13:17 < bla> bla: Hmm.. This sounds like a problem that ---in order to get _really_ enough_ data--- has to be >>log(N) on the network. 
13:17 < jrandom> i've been toying with some ideas to get more data, but haven't updated it yet
13:17 < bla> In terms of load, that is.
13:18 < jrandom> well, one of the critical points certainly is when the network load exceeds the network capacity
13:18 < jrandom> i believe our capacity calculators can handle that though
13:18 < cervantes> jrandom: is -3 actually employing this fast peer selection method?
13:18 <+polecat> Hopefully since data transfer between peers has fairness controls, there won't be any way to increase load too much...
13:19 < bla> jrandom: Well, I mean more specifically: we need to make sure that the "finding out who is fast" algo. stays O(log(N))
13:19 < jrandom> cervantes: yeah, but as i said, it doesn't allow promoting peers between fast and high capacity
13:19 < jrandom> polecat: fairness controls?
13:19 < cervantes> since I've just realised I've had the proxy enabled, and have been browsing the live web without realising (I did think my connection was a little sluggish) ;-)
13:20 < cervantes> s/live web/outerweb
13:20 < jrandom> bla: i'm not sure we should be dependent upon N.  no need to find an optimal 'fastest on the net', merely 'fast enough to handle our data'
13:20 <@smeghead> it would seem i2pProxy.pac is dangerous even for its creator :)
13:20 < jrandom> heh nice cervantes :)
13:20 < jrandom> lol
13:20 < cervantes> so it certainly seems to have improved things on my home node which was really suffering before
13:21 < ant> <BS314159> jrandom: can you randomize it?
13:21 < cervantes> smeghead: hehe hell I don't use that! you think I'm mad!
13:21 < ant> <BS314159> i.e. create a spontaneous transition rate?
13:21 < jrandom> BS314159: we use the tiers, and randomize within the tiers
13:22 < jrandom> BS314159: spontaneous rates are essentially what we have now, which fluctuate widely
13:22 < jrandom> (we ==
13:22 < ant> <BS314159> I think I don't understand the problem. nm.
13:23 < jrandom> it is tough to do safely and accurately, but i think there's enough data around for us to harvest sufficient info.  we shall see
13:23 < bla> jrandom: In any case, finding out a couple of good nodes looks an awful lot like an ant-colony optimization thing
13:24 < bla> jrandom: Because once you've got fast peers, you're likely to use _those_ to find out who else is fast.
13:24 < jrandom> would you propose further active probing along those lines?
13:24 < jrandom> ah, actualy, thats not true
13:25 < jrandom> thats the difference between client tunnels and exploratory tunnels
13:25 < bla> jrandom: And thus, it seems you'd essentially be doing a greedy optimization scheme (much like ant-colony)
13:25 < jrandom> client tunnels are built with fast peers, exploratory tunnels are built with any non-failing peer
13:25 < jrandom> (chosen randomly)
13:26 < bla> jrandom: Hmm.. For anonimity, that's good. However, for quickly finding good tunnel-partners to use, it would be better to use fast peers in the expl. tunnels... The trade-off again
13:26 < jrandom> otoh, there may be something in that vein to help optimize the peer selection
13:26 < jrandom> oh, right, certainly you'd get better performance by using the fast peers, but then you wouldn't be exploring :)
13:27 < jrandom> the exploratory tunnels aren't used for end to end client messages, just for netDb messages, tunnel maintenance messages, and peer test messages
13:27 < bla> jrandom: I see, so effectively, you use random expl. tunnels to prevent falling into local optima?
13:27 < jrandom> so the actual throughput of the exploratory tunnels doesnt matter (as long as the data gets through, eventually)
13:27 < jrandom> aye
13:29 < bla> jrandom: Ok, I see. OTOH: When I use my client tunnels to transfer some data (like downloading from an eepsite), I seems to me (intuitively), that the timing/throughput data on that could also serve as some kind of "passive peers assessment", couldn't it?
13:29 < jrandom> definitely bla, and at the moment, we don't yet harvest that data within the speed selection
13:29 < bla> jrandom: i.e. as an aux. way to get more data on peers
13:30 < jrandom> some of it we can, though some of it will be harder to grab (since the streaming lib is external)
13:30 < jrandom> we should definitely grab what we can though to get more confidence
13:30 < ant> <BS314159> won't that depend on the slowest link in any tunnel?
13:31 < ant> <BS314159> making it very difficult to use for hops>0?
13:31 < jrandom> BS314159: yeah, but it'll average out, as peers are selected randomly within the fast tier
13:31 < jrandom> same goes for any remote measurement
13:34 < jrandom> ok, so thats generally where things stand atm.  hopefully we'll have some new calculators & stats up for a -4 or -5 build in the next few days, trying to see how it handles the live net
13:34 < jrandom> anyone have anything else to bring up for 1) Net status?
13:34 < bla> jrandom: It may seem that I'm putting a truckload of emphasis on this, but it seems to me to be a problem that['s very fundamental for a big I2P net to work...
13:35 < jrandom> bla: its certainly important, but remember, we don't need optimal peer selection.  merely sufficient
13:35 < ant> <aum> morning folks
13:36 < jrandom> all we care about is finding some peers who can handle a tunnel, and making sure those tunnels can handle our data
13:36 < jrandom> 'mornin aum, in time for the meeting :)
13:36 < bla> jrandom: I see. Thnx for the explaination!
13:36 < jrandom> of course, you're right in that it'd be kickass if we /could/ find the optimal peer selection ;)
13:37 < jrandom> and there is definitely lots of room for some students to work out some ideas and write up some papers
13:37 < frosk> this would be a cool thesis project :)
13:37 <+detonate> how workable do you think it would be to actively tweak the parameters of the peer selection until it hopefully settles on something that works, disregarding the impossibility of debugging such a system? :)
13:38 < jrandom> detonate: manual peer selection is a PITA, since fast peers get congested occationally, asking you to back off, etc.  
13:38 <+detonate> ah
13:39 < jrandom> i know we could dig into this forever, which is why i've set a milestone of successfully transferring one specific large file through standard tunnels, without disconnect
13:39 <+detonate> alright
13:40 < Teal> Victory at any cost!
13:40 < jrandom> (otoh, there are some undocumented features of the peer selection system to let people weight individual peers manually, but i'm not recommending 'em ;)
13:40 < jrandom> ok, thats 'bout it for 1), now lets swing on to 2) Feedspace
13:41  * jrandom hands the mic to frosk 
13:41 < frosk> oh, ok, hi
13:42 < Myo9> Hi Frosk.
13:42  * jrandom gets out the high intensity spotlight
13:42 < frosk> so, everyone should check out http://feedspace.i2p (keys at orion or jrandom's blog)
13:42 < frosk> my devbuddy (which i will out now as ku) and i have started writing some code and have had many lively discussions
13:42 < frosk> also, http://feedspace.i2p/wiki/CallForComments has a fresh rev of the feedspace document :)
13:43 < frosk> hi Myo9
13:43 < frosk> oh yeah, feedspace is our new (and final) name for what used to be known as i2pcontent or fusenet :)
13:43 < jrandom> r0x0r
13:43 < frosk> as the status notes notes, we are still very interested in feedback on the general design of everything
13:44 < frosk> nobody should be shy about challenging it :)
13:44 < frosk> and the web site also lists some "job openings", we could use some helping hands on many aspects of the system and project
13:45 < frosk> we're on a pretty tight schedule and none of us are full-time developers on the project unfortunately
13:45 < frosk> so that's pretty much it, i think. questions? :)
13:45 < ant> * aum can't reach orion.i2p or jrandom's blog, so can't reach feedspace.i2p
13:46 < frosk> hm yes, the web site also has a roadmap, but the dates there _will_ change :)
13:46 < legion> feedspace.i2p=KuW5sR2iGCfnnuwdslHbFsNyNCsoZnoIwAmHeypOV-s8OQxokBpdNazksBrhoQum9nv81vprl6k15Mhcd~KWE4OajjmdU7v2fjqps7QK3KmLv4UTrX-ihSIUdhb5B9FLh2XEFEQ4-8guFTVxBRqQQE~c058AL6~uZpuFpLtEOg0HEZ6BydndOhx-FCDm8ip12pPwZ3a5O86l1UoATZBXxoctGafTjnUlx64jyQs6y0WB811l36wVrc~~dqEcanxab0yfg8dJ~1M4EUNrXcHT-PwYYrr3GgpimuF4oUtYjkeDKlq5WjfMAa8bE73HFgquxq99fuW5aI1JbLPxnTLHi00-2On0dSDwJxSP08HOhKFKMNzykI9Asg8CywzNO6kWpbX9yaML36ohCJF0iaLvvDyhS4a2B65crSJRJPVkbxIvsyyUyYMGi31EK593ijOLjOvug
13:46 < legion> there you go aum
13:46  * jrandom just added feedspace to http://dev.i2p.net/i2p/hosts.txt
13:46 < jrandom> (and cvs)
13:46  * frosk goes temporarily blind
13:46 < jrandom> legion: never paste as a single line, its too large to fit
13:47 < ant> <aum> thx
13:47 < frosk> jrandom can probably commit the key into his hosts.txt maybe? :)
13:47 < jrandom> aye, 'tis on there now, forgot to :)
13:48 < frosk> anyway, the plan is to have something simple and functional (and 100% bug-free!) out by I2P 0.6.1, and we'll build more neat stuff in later
13:49 < jrandom> heh wikked
13:49 < frosk> s/out/ready for real-world testing/
13:49 < frosk> i still can't say if that's realistic or not, but i hope it will be, or we'll continue to cut features ;)
13:49 < ant> <BS314159> since I can't reach feedspace.i2p, I'll ask a basic question
13:50 < ant> <aum> that key is not correct, only 441 chars
13:50 < jrandom> right aum, irc trims it, snag http://dev.i2p.net/i2p/hosts.txt
13:51 <+detonate> frosk: i have a suggestion for the meantime
13:51 <+detonate> get something on the i2p router console that grabs a list of updates from the i2p webserver, so people know when to update their routers, etc :)
13:51 < legion> ah sorry, about that. Anyways I've already commited it to my hosts.txt also.
13:51 < ant> <aum> thx jrandom
13:51 < ant> <BS314159> which of the following systems do you see feedspace supplanting: usenet, gnutella, google, livejournal, www
13:52 < jrandom> , the church
13:52 < jrandom> er..
13:52 < cervantes> jrandom: ah you caught me mid commit of hosts
13:52 < ant> <BS314159> i.e. is it a message forum, a filesharing system, a content indexing system, a dynamic page system, and/or a static serving system
13:53 < ant> * aum turns off throttling within routerConsole, and sees if that helps
13:54 < frosk> BS314159: we will support blogs, forums, and shared address books (for the first version, other applications are possible)
13:54 < frosk> it doesn't replace web pages per se
13:54 < frosk> but it certainly could be used for "file sharing"
13:54 <+detonate> content syndication then?
13:54 < jrandom> it'd probably supplant static web content though, allowing persistent web publication for people who cannot run eepsites
13:54 < frosk> that's what it's about
13:55 < jrandom> (two word summary: usenet+SSK)
13:55 < frosk> yeah
13:55 < ant> <BS314159> ok
13:55 < Ragnarok> not that persistent
13:56 < jrandom> Ragnarok: depends on syndicator policy, true
13:56 <+detonate> is anything happening with stasher?
13:56 < frosk> it can be as persistant as the most eager syndicator :)
13:56 < jrandom> (see: dejanews ;)
13:56 < ant> <aum> detonate: stasher is on hold, writing a whole new thing called quartermaster
13:57 <+detonate> i see
13:58 < jrandom> frosk: what can we do to help?
13:59 < jrandom> should people register & hack on the wiki, email, post on the forum?
13:59 < jrandom> oh, perhaps we can get cervantes to add a new forum category?
13:59 < frosk> i think actually a forum would be very nice at this point
14:00 < frosk> for more private discussion, you can email us both at ku@mail.i2p and frosk@mail.i2p
14:01 < cervantes> hrrrm ... are you going to put game reviews in it?
14:01 < jrandom> heh
14:01 < jrandom> w3rd
14:01 < cervantes> because if not...then you're welcome to have a new forum section
14:01 < frosk> i was thinking top20 music reviews, cervantes
14:02 < jrandom> (btw, mirror of the call for comments @ http://dev.i2p.net/~jrandom/feedspace.txt)
14:02 < cervantes> :)
14:04 < cervantes> frosk: feedspace or feed space or Feedspace or Feed Space or FeedSpace?
14:04 < frosk> cervantes: Feedspace
14:05 < frosk> looking forward to much discussion over at the forum then :) i don't have anything else for this point, anyone else?
14:05 < jrandom> ok cool, thanks for the update frosk 
14:06 <@smeghead> or FEeDspace?
14:06 < ant> <cervantes> frosk: when you have a moment, just pm me a one liner description for the forum section
14:06 < legion> hmm speaking of new forums, lol. I'm putting a new forum site together. Though I have much hacking left to do on the phpbb code, it should be finshed sometime this week. ;)
14:06 < jrandom> cool legion 
14:06 < jrandom> that actually brings us into 3) ??? nicely
14:06 < jrandom> anyone have anything else to bring up? 
14:06 < jrandom> aum: any updates on Q?
14:07 < frosk> i, uhm, no
14:07 < ant> <aum> Q devlt is moving along nicely, nothing to announce atm
14:07 < jrandom> w3rd
14:07 < ant> * aum is 90% complete with net.i2p.i2ptunnel.I2PTunnelXMLServer
14:07 < ant> <BS314159> I have a simple question about netDb
14:07 < ant> <aum> everything's working now except 'i2p.tunnel.close'
14:07 < legion> my forums will allow for members to have decent sized avatars, discuss shared content, just about whatever.
14:08 < jrandom> wikked
14:08 < ant> <BS314159> it says on the page that entries are stores on the peers closest to SHA256(router identity + YYYYMMdd)
14:08 < jrandom> right BSpi
14:08 <@smeghead> legion: will it be as much a security hazard as your bt client?
14:08 < ant> <BS314159> does this mean there's a burst of traffic every 00:00 GMT?
14:08 < ant> * aum is actually gaining some fluency in java, having attained a 'cognitive critical mass'
14:09 < jrandom> BS: data points expire more frequently than they migrate
14:09 < jrandom> a LeaseSet is only good for 10 minutes, for example
14:09 < bla> jrandom: Is there a command-line call  I can make, such that I can speed estimates of each of the peers in the net over the last, say, 60 seconds, or so?
14:09 < legion> lol, forums a security hazard?
14:10 <@smeghead> legion: yes, and if you don't know that much, i'm already convinced that your forums will be a security hazard
14:10 < jrandom> bla: yeah, java -cp lib/i2p.jar:lib/router.jar -Djava.library.path=. net.i2p.router.peermanager.ProfileOrganizer peerProfiles/*
14:10 < jrandom> (i think)
14:10 < legion> oh and the next release of my bt client shouldn't cause such issues...
14:10 < jrandom> you may need to add some log levels to logger.config, lemmie check
14:10 <@smeghead> legion: Cervantes made a ton of modifications to phpBB to lock it down for i2p use
14:10 < ant> <BS314159> It just seems like having it occur all-at-once at a specified time is awkward.  If it were happening continuously, that would seem...smoother.  It would also give an attacker less time to mount an attack, since bits of the data would be wrong in less than 24 hours
14:11 < jrandom> nah, it dumps to stdout
14:11 < frosk> jrandom: how do you feel about the i2p roadmap currently, if one may ask? do you think it's realistic?
14:11 < legion> Hmm I wonder if I can get a copy of cervantes mods?
14:11 < jrandom> frosk: i update it when i become uncomfortable with it
14:12 < frosk> ok
14:12 <+detonate> you know, there's a windows installer for python 2.4, one for wxpython, and there's the i2p-bt tarball, i don't really see why anyone would get/trust a third-party release
14:12 < legion> Otherwise I'll just have to continue to hack on the phpbb source myself...
14:12 < jrandom> BS: peers would only look in the wrong place for up to 30s, due to clock synchronization
14:12 <@smeghead> legion: have fun
14:12 < legion> well why would anyone get and use kazaa?
14:13 < bla> jrandom: I'm asking, because...
14:13 < legion> Or morpheus?
14:13 < jrandom> (because they dont know better?)
14:13 < legion> Both of those contain adware/etc...
14:13 <+detonate> they are ignorant?
14:14 < legion> yeah and there are millions of ignorant users out there. ;)
14:14 < ant> <BS314159> legion: you sound like you want to bundle spyware with I2P.  Truly, a stroke of genius.
14:14 < bla> jrandom: ...I browsed SpeedCalculator.java and CapacityCalculator.java, and I'd like to experiment with the estimators
14:14 < cervantes> legion: stay uptodate with official patches, and put htaccess on the admin areas
14:14 < jrandom> wikked bla
14:14 < legion> What? Heck no... I hate malware...
14:14 < cervantes> most of my mods involve spam prevention
14:14 < ant> <aum> can i raise a more critical issue?
14:14 < legion> That's it? cervantes?
14:15 < jrandom> sup aum?
14:15 <@smeghead> legion: what about your users that also hate malware? why do you do nothing to alleviate any concerns they might have?
14:15 < ant> <dm> BS314159: are you a windows hotfix?
14:15 < ant> <aum> is it just me, or is there still some flakiness going on with in i2p? i'm having heaps of trouble with even main eepsites, irc etc
14:15 < bla> jrandom: In addition, the idea of "passive fingerprinting" is now in my head (a bit ;): If I receive data through a tunnel, this tells me something about the bandwidth/capacity of all the peers in that tunnel:...
14:15 < jrandom> aum: see the weekly status notes
14:16 < cervantes> legion: rename all registration, login , posting and profile editing pages to something non-standard 
14:16 < bla> jrandom: It tells me some about the peer closest to me, somewhat less about the peers one step away, and so progressively less.
14:16 < cervantes> will help keep worms at bay
14:16 < jrandom> bla: aye, i read that timing paper, and yesterday's tor attack paper with much interest
14:17 < Myo9> Cervantes, releasing ant of your mods?
14:17 < Myo9> s/ant/any/
14:17 < jrandom> there is worry along those lines in the capacity calculator with the different tiers of rejection
14:18 < bla> jrandom: In a way, this gives me some degree of "belief" in a peers bandwidth/capacity (that degree of belief depends on the distance to each of the tunnel members, and on the amount of belief I have on the BW/cap. of the nodes closest to me)
14:18 < legion> thanks for the advice cervantes :)
14:18 < bla> jrandom: Now, I happen to know some ppl that know a lot about Bayesian Belief Networks... ;))
14:18 <@smeghead> again, legion ignores the question
14:18 <+thetower> I think we're all gonna have to call a truce with legion and let him write whatever he wants, its not like anyone is forced to use it.
14:18 < jrandom> hmm, what do you mean by distance bla?
14:18 < ant> <dm> what is legion up to?
14:19 < bla> jrandom: I'll have a chat with them, regarding passive fingerprinting (note: I do not mean "fingerprinting" in the negative sense of the word)
14:19 < jrandom> wikked
14:19 < jrandom> suggestions as to how we can best select 'quality' peers are very much welcome
14:19 < cervantes> Myo9: I certainly could do.
14:19 < legion> Anyways there isn't many i2p windows users just yet and not that many running my i2p-bt binary distribution. Soon my next release will be done and released, it will not have such issues... As there will be a binary and source distribution.
14:19 <@smeghead> why anyone would want to use software from someone who doesn't even take the most basic measures to address users' concerns about security and anonymity is beyond me
14:20 < ant> <aum> frosk: what lang you writing feedspace in? (forgive me if i asked you before)
14:20 < cervantes> it's not a clean "patch" or anything though
14:20 < bla> jrandom: distance... Say I have an inbound tunnel X -> Y -> me, and I know a _lot_ about Y's properties, than stats on what I receive thru that tunnel tells me a good deal about X
14:20 < frosk> aum: java (and i forgive you ;)
14:20 < cervantes> I've just been fixing stuff andproblems as it arises
14:20 < bla> jrandom: OTOH, if I have little data/belief on Y's properties, transfer stats don't tell me much about X yet; I first have more to learn about Y
14:20 < cervantes> as they
14:20 < jrandom> bla: its very hard to tell whether lag or congestion occurs @ X or Y (or earlier hops)
14:20 < cervantes> http://forum.i2p/index.php?c=4
14:21 < cervantes> new section: Feedspace
14:21 < jrandom> w00t
14:21 < frosk> yay
14:22 < legion> anyways enough discussion about my release, any further discussion about it should be done in the #itorrent channel
14:22 < bla> jrandom: That is true. However, given large amount of data (and hoping that the measurement time is not _much_ larger than the timescale on which node properties change), I'm convinced there _must_ be information in traffic/tunnel stats
14:22 <@smeghead> legion: we can discuss in meeting point # 3) any business that affects i2p
14:23 <@smeghead> legion: and i think your software is of serious concern and warrants a warning to users
14:23 < legion> yeah, ok
14:23 < jrandom> bla: certainly, we just need to rope in the RTT from the OutboundClientMessageOneShotJob
14:23 < jrandom> (and then figure out how best to calculate & decay the data)
14:24 < legion> So smeghead if you were to make such a release, what would you do differently?
14:24 <@smeghead> legion: the way you continually dodge questions and try to defer discussion on the subject is very disconcerting
14:25 <@smeghead> legion: first of all, release the source to your current binary, no matter if it's "just i2p-bt with smeghead's patch", and have a writeup on your site explaining about your fork
14:25 < bla> jrandom: What does the RTT signify there?
14:26 <@smeghead> legion: it would be helpful to do as i2p-bt does also, and make a changelog indicating all the modifications you've made
14:27 < jrandom> bla: end to end client messages are often (by default, always) bundled in garlic wrapping, containing an additional DeliveryStatusMessage that returns to the sender (through tunnels, of course), allowing the use of AES+sessionTags instead of ElGamal
14:28 < bla> jrandom: (yes)
14:28 <+detonate> as i said, you could just provide a link to the download page for the three things you need for i2p-bt to work, it's straight-forward and gets you exactly the same thing, i can't actually see a use for it besides a trojan
14:28 < jrandom> later on we'll update I2CP (and the SDK) to allow the streaming lib to deliver that same data without requiring the DeliveryStatusMessage
14:29 <@smeghead> detonate: i agree, he should have just submitted a patch to the official i2p-bt in the first place, forking was completely unnecessary and fostered immediate suspicioun
14:30 <+detonate> indeed
14:30 <@smeghead> *suspicion
14:31 < jrandom> ok, anyone else have anything to bring up for the meeting?
14:31 < ant> <drakoh> hi people ! wanted to know, is there anything special with the network ?
14:32 <@smeghead> because of the nature of i2p, applications developed for it require a greater measure of openness with end users and cooperation among developers
14:32 < jrandom> drakoh: see the weekly status notes
14:32 < bla> quit
14:32 < ant> <drakoh> no I mean something strange ...
14:32 <@smeghead> i2p users will always be naturally paranoid to some extent, and it's our duty to do what we can to dispel any concerns we possibly can
14:32 < ant> <drakoh> like I lost all my peers
14:33 < jrandom> aye, agreed smeghead.  for anonymity or security software, especially software dealing with a trojan-laden field such as filesharing, its critical to be open.
14:33 < jrandom> drakoh: ok, hold on, we can debug that once the meeting is over
14:33 < ant> <drakoh> woops sorry
14:33 < jrandom> ok, speaking of the meeting being over...
14:34  * jrandom winds up
14:34  * jrandom *baf*s the meeting closed