--- Log opened Wed Aug 21 00:58:22 2002
00:58 <@mids> test
01:00 <@mids> Hi folk(s)
01:00 <@mids> nop & userx wont be here, and I dont have much to say
01:00 <@mids> so lets just have an informal chit chat
01:00 <@mids> with lots of questions and user feedback (yeah)
01:01 -!- mids changed the topic of #iip-dev to: No formal meeting, but be welcome and chat. logs: http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
01:02 <@mids> on the freenet-devl mailinglist there has been a discussion about leaving OPN (irc.openprojects.net) and some suggested that IIP could be an alternative
01:03 <@mids> Ian Clarke countered that IIP isn't subjected to any peer review by experts
01:03 <@mids> and that it might be dangerous to think that this network is anonymous
01:04 <@mids> he has a good point there, currently we are beeing reviewed by some guys, only info that I have is this url:
01:04 <@mids> http://www.cypherpunks.to/ip/
01:04 <@mids> .
01:05 <@mids> I hope that everybody realizes that IIP isn't bugfree, and that the anonimity factor can be quite relative
01:06 <@mids> but this shouldn't stop us from using it, catching bugs and making improvements
01:06 <@mids> .
01:06 < thecrypto> true anomimity is possible, it's just really hard
01:07 < hobbs> no, actually, I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. true anonymity is impossible, but you can make it "really hard" for whoever wants to find out.
01:08 < hobbs> off to eat. be back asap. :)
01:08 <@mids> appart from the cryptography algorithms, IIP does depend on the amount of public relays to 'hide' the users. with only a few it can be relativly easy for big organisations with lots of power to systimatically track every user down
01:08 <@mids> thanks for dropping by hobbs 
01:08 < thecrypto> chaum proved it in his paper on dining cryptographer's, however setting up a DC-net for this would be a huge feat
01:09 <@mids> but what if all philosophers but 1 are working together?
01:10 < thecrypto> yes, that is a weakness there
01:10 <@mids> so, we need more public relays and more peer reviews :)
01:11 <@mids> if you happen to be a security / cryptography expert, dont hesitate to examine IIP
01:11 <@mids> .
01:12 <@mids> I have taken a look at SILC (http://www.silcnet.org)
01:12 <@mids> it is a chat client and server system with embedded cryptography
01:12 <@mids> you can put keys on channels and private conversations
01:13 < thecrypto> i'm not an expert, just a student who reads alot about this topic :)
01:13 <@mids> it cant be compared with IIP, since it doesn't offer (an attempt) to anonymity
01:13 <@mids> but it is quite interesting, maybe you (readers of the logfile) should take a look at it
01:14 <@mids> I have been trying to run it over IIP, so you will get both channel crypto and anonymity
01:14 <@mids> but I had little problems setting up the network for IIP version 1.1
01:14 <@mids> once nop / userx respond with some hints how to do it, I'll put a test server behind IIP... as a proof of concept
01:15 <@mids> .
01:15  * mids throws the mike in the audience
01:18 < thecrypto> doesn't IIP already have end-to-end encryption?
01:18 <@mids> server-end 
01:18 <@mids> the server is a patched ircd, and gets all the text plaintext from the server-side IIP node
01:18 <@mids> so an Evil Serveradmin could log all the private and channel conversations
01:19 <@mids> (after patching the source ofcourse)
01:20 <@mids> but he (or she) wont get are the IP addresses of users
01:20 <@mids> .
01:20 < thecrypto> ahh, the evil admin problem. why can't we put in encryption to the server?
01:21 <@mids> because then you either have to put irc protocol level code in the local IIP nodes or use special irc clients
01:21 <@mids> the aim for IIP has been (so far) to work with normal irc clients, and I expect that it will be that way in the (near) future
01:22 <@mids> an aim is making a VIRCD (virtual irc daemon) in each IIP client relay which handles the channel / user crypto
01:22 < thecrypto> so it's on the TODO list but not there yet
01:22 <@mids> exactly
01:23 <@mids> ellison informed me that he has a demo of the new IIP and InvisibleNet website available
01:24 <@mids> it will cooked into HTML in a couple of minutes
01:24 < agril> Why doesn't /lusers work anymore?
01:25 <@mids> all /stats commands (I don't know if /lusers uses that, or if it is a native ircd command) have been disabled in the ircd
01:25 <@mids> so we dont know how many clients or hidden channels there are
01:26 <@mids> that is probably better... for evildoers it would be harder to measure the outcome of their flood/ddos attempts
01:27 <@mids> but I have to admit that I miss the nice network graphs that could be created using those stats :(
01:30 <@mids> (ellison is uploading the site right now)
01:31 <@mids> http://www.citystateinc.com/ellison/invisiblenet/
01:31 <@mids> hurray!
01:31 < thecrypto> is there an offical TODO list anywhere?
01:32 <@mids> I know that some subprojects have TODO lists... but the main project, I dont know
01:32 <@mids> but I am sure that userx/nop have their own list
01:33 <@mids> http://help.invisiblenet.net/ chapter 1 - future plans
01:33 <@mids> that contains a few far away aims
01:33 <@mids> Neo: http://www.citystateinc.com/ellison/invisiblenet/
01:33 < Neo> tanks
01:35 <@mids> any comments about the website?
01:36 < Neo> Oh, nope.
01:36 < Neo> Its looking great.
01:36 < Neo> iip section is just so much better than what was before.
01:37 <@mids> I totally agree
01:37 < Neo> Download, Screenshots, Documentation, Development, Contact. Good flow.
01:39 <@mids> it looks very consistent and easily adaptable
01:39 < thecrypto> good site
01:39 <@mids> any important section missing? (in the menu)
01:42 <@mids> I think we have it all covered
01:43 < pox> looks good
01:43 <@mids> under Contact there will also be a list of all the PGP keys of developers and contributors
01:45 <@mids> last point about the site: ellison will be done soon, then he'll ship it to me and nop and we will fill in the pieces
01:45 <@mids> I guess that I will make some includes using php so that information can be updated easily
01:46  * mids thinks we will have this cool website Real Soon!!!
01:46 <@mids> .
01:47 < thecrypto> a good website is the sign of a good project :)
01:47 < Neo> Great stuff.
01:48 <@mids> That was iip-dev radio with your host mids, feel free to hang around with your questions & comments
01:49 < hobbs> wow. that's pretty.
--- Log closed Wed Aug 21 01:55:36 2002