I2P dev meeting, November 03, 2015 @ 20:00 UTC

Quick recap

  • Present:

abyss, amknesia, anonimal, dogedDEV, eche|on, kytv, Lady3Jane, lbt, obscuratus, psi, sadie_i2p, str4d, trolly, xmz, Z0rg1nc, zab@kyirc, zzz,

تمام وقایع IRC

20:00:17  <zzz> 0) Hi
20:00:17  <zzz> 1) http://dogecoindark.i2p/ console home page request, reconsideration from July 14 meeting http://i2p-projekt.i2p/en/meetings/238 -- orig. request: http://zzz.i2p/topics/236?page=2#p9999 -- result: http://zzz.i2p/topics/236?page=3#p10078 -- possibly replaced by http://doged.i2p/
20:00:17  <zzz> 2) http://exchanged.i2p/ console home page request: http://zzz.i2p/topics/236?page=3#p10391
20:00:17  <zzz> 3) http://i2pwiki.i2p/ console home page request: http://zzz.i2p/topics/236?page=3#p10437
20:00:18  <zzz> 4) http://lenta.i2p/ console home page request: http://zzz.i2p/topics/236?page=3#p10439
20:00:21  <zzz> 5) CCC preparation update from Oct. 6 meeting: http://i2p-projekt.i2p/en/meetings/239
20:00:22  <zzz> 6) forum.i2p replacement proposal  (hottuna, dg) - followup from Oct. 6 meeting: http://i2p-projekt.i2p/en/meetings/239
20:00:25  <zzz> Note that several early comments on items 1-4 are on the agenda page http://zzz.i2p/topics/1970
20:00:27  <zzz> 0) Hi
20:00:42  <zzz> welcome to the 240th meeting of this great project, spanning 13 1/2 years
20:01:00  <zab@kyirc> hi
20:01:10  <anonimal> Hello
20:01:24  <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: How to get my Eepsite added to the Router Console home page (at zzz.i2p)
20:01:27  <zzz> for the new folks, this meeting is mainly for group decision-making, let's target 10 minutes or less for each agenda item
20:01:43  <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: How to get my Eepsite added to the Router Console home page (at zzz.i2p)
20:01:51  <zzz> and as a reminder, anybody else can schedule a meeting here at any time for any reason
20:01:53  <iRelay> Title: I2PWiki (at i2pwiki.i2p)
20:02:16  <zzz> 1) http://dogecoindark.i2p/ console home page request, reconsideration from July 14 meeting http://i2p-projekt.i2p/en/meetings/238 -- orig. request: http://zzz.i2p/topics/236?page=2#p9999 -- result: http://zzz.i2p/topics/236?page=3#p10078 -- possibly replaced by http://doged.i2p/
20:02:26  <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: How to get my Eepsite added to the Router Console home page (at zzz.i2p)
20:02:35  <iRelay> Title: I2P Development Meeting 239 - I2P (at i2p-projekt.i2p)
20:02:39  <zzz> is the dogecoindark.i2p operator here?
20:02:39  <iRelay> Title: I2P Development Meeting 239 - I2P (at i2p-projekt.i2p)
20:02:43  <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: Meeting Tues. Nov. 3, 8 PM UTC (at zzz.i2p)
20:03:17  <iRelay> Title: I2P Development Meeting 238 - I2P (at i2p-projekt.i2p)
20:04:34  <zzz> I saw a lot of negative comments about dogecoindark.i2p/doged.i2p on the meeting page. Anybody else wish to comment pro or con?
20:05:03  <psi>  i think i2p should start taking a neutral stance towards cryptocoins in general
20:05:20  <zzz> what would you say our stance is now?
20:05:33  <psi> neutral
20:06:03  <zzz> so what do you mean 'start' taking a neutral stance?
20:06:06  <dogedDEV> yeah
20:06:11  <dogedDEV> im here
20:06:30  <dogedDEV> what was the negative comments?
20:06:32  <dogedDEV> ive removed all scripts,
20:06:35  <psi> not endorsing some coins over others
20:06:38  <dogedDEV> its just graphics and html now
20:06:54  <zzz> dogedDEV, please review them quickly, link is above
20:07:00  <dogedDEV> and ive moved alot of our source code over to the i2p based git repo
20:07:02  <anonimal> I spoke my peace in http://zzz.i2p/topics/1970-meeting-tues-nov-3-8-pm-utc
20:07:02  <str4d> hi
20:07:06  <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: Meeting Tues. Nov. 3, 8 PM UTC (at zzz.i2p)
20:07:51  <zzz> dogedDEV, please explain the name change, and respond to the objections about all the images. As of now you don't have any support at all, so you have about 2 minutes to convince us otherwise
20:08:34  <dogedDEV> well, ive been non stop building us out  more on i2p
20:08:39  <dogedDEV> i built an i2p electrum server
20:08:49  <dogedDEV> i revamped the entire site after the complains it had widgets
20:09:00  <dogedDEV> which is why the name changed to i2p. i scrapped the old site and started fresh.
20:09:11  <dogedDEV> ive made quite a few tutorials to help users get on i2p
20:09:29  <dogedDEV> and doged.i2p is its permanent home
20:11:15  <dogedDEV> id like to think that if people increase their bandwidth the graphics will load faster. perhaps i will add a text only version in the near future to satisfy people with low bandwidths needs
20:11:15  <dogedDEV> i really enjoy i2p and have spread the word to many privacy concerned people globally about it, and its benefits
20:11:15  <zzz> but all of i2p is 'low bandwidth'. The problem is on your end, not your users
20:11:15  <dogedDEV> the images seem to load fast for me and other users who have tweaked their bandwidth
20:11:15  <zzz> not for me
20:11:15  <dogedDEV> i feel our site there loads just as fast as our onion site.
20:11:19  <dogedDEV> i have been focusing less on tor as of late and more on i2p.
20:11:21  <zzz> or the others who commented
20:11:27  <anonimal> Nor me, and I'm loading it again and waiting.
20:11:45  <anonimal> And clearnet sources are still being pulled. It's like nothing changed since we posted in that thread.
20:11:50  <dogedDEV> i can change the resolution on them i suppose
20:12:00  <zzz> no site in 2015 puts everything behind 200 images on the home page
20:12:02  <dogedDEV> whgere is it pulling from clearnet?
20:12:13  <dogedDEV> it shouldnt be communicating with any clearnet
20:12:17  <abyss> hello
20:12:24  <kytv> the index page
20:12:47  <zzz> right now i don't see it as 'broadly useful to the i2p community', which is our first critereon
20:12:56  <zzz> I see where you're headed but I don't think you're there yet
20:13:03  <dogedDEV> how is a crypto currency focused on privacy not useful?
20:13:06  <kytv> it's clearly better than it was.
20:13:08  <str4d> I'm loading the site right now
20:13:15  <zzz> is anybody here in favor of this request, please speak up now
20:13:23  <dogedDEV> i just loaded it, half the graphics have already loaded on my end
20:13:39  <str4d> Site took 13s to load HTML (but most of that was getting the LS)
20:13:44  <dogedDEV> and im not connecting to it locally or anything
20:13:48  <abyss> i works fine for me
20:13:50  <str4d> I've never loaded the site at its new addr yet
20:14:01  <str4d> Fastest image was 17s
20:14:10  <str4d> Slowest so far is 1min44s
20:14:25  <dogedDEV> i can absolutely lower the resolution on the graphics
20:14:34  <zzz> last time I tried I gave up after 10 minutes
20:14:42  <abyss> dogedev has been working hard on promoting privacy and pushing the clearnet cryptocoin community towards i2p
20:14:44  <str4d> 3min in, still not loaded
20:14:51  <anonimal> ^ same here, it's still loading.
20:14:53  <kytv> it's never loaded completely on my end
20:14:56  <eche|on> ok, started to load 1 min ago, lets wait
20:14:57  <str4d> dogedDEV, are you using the same I2P router for HTTP tunnel when testing?
20:15:14  <dogedDEV> no
20:15:14  <str4d> because if so, your connection won't be going through I2P
20:15:29  <zzz> we aren't doubting dogedDEV's commitment to i2p. we are evaluating the appropriateness of adding the site to the home page only
20:15:46  <dogedDEV> i suppose i can lower the res on the images, thereby decreasing image file sizes.
20:16:01  <str4d> dogedDEV, okay, now that some of the upper half of the site has loaded (dev resources etc.), I can see the problem
20:16:10  <dogedDEV> i just wanted it to look nice, but i suppose for the average user it would load slow. and performance is just as importance.
20:16:15  <str4d> You shouldn't need to use images for *ALL* of your content
20:16:22  <dogedDEV> important*
20:16:30  <anonimal> I appreciate the artistic merit, but why can't this be an opportunity for innovation?
20:16:32  <zzz> I'm proposing we reject this request. He can always resubmit some time in the future. Any objections?
20:16:42  <str4d> Not only does it make the site take ages to load, but it also makes the site unsearchable
20:16:52  <dogedDEV> there is innovation in the coin, even with i2p
20:16:57  <dogedDEV> any other i2p electrum servers out there?
20:17:34  <zab@kyirc> I'm all for getting into financial stuff but this is way too slow
20:18:01  <anonimal> It seems that the only person who cares about the website's vision is the author.
20:18:01  <dogedDEV> i working on an android app now that connects to our i2p electrum
20:18:01  <str4d> If what you like is the font, you can load that font via CSS
20:18:01  <zzz> we aren't doubting the innovation, or your overall project. Only the website.
20:18:01  <anonimal> I'm speaking solely on the site, this meeting is about the *site*.
20:18:01  <zzz> last call for discussion on 1)
20:18:01  <str4d> Most of what I can see on the website could be done in CSS, which would drastically cut down the required images and drastically improve site load times.
20:18:01  <dogedDEV> no, i did agree with the website vision, if the graphics are too large, i can decrease the size and even make a text only link, that just uses css
20:18:01  <abyss> anonimal,  i like it
20:18:02  <anonimal> I agree with str4d
20:18:29  <kytv> no objections to rejecting. It's unbearably slow when it loads.
20:18:43  <dogedDEV> whens the next meeting?
20:18:43  <kytv> and now isn't one of those times...
20:18:47  <kytv> $ http_proxy= curl --silent http://doged.i2p/
20:18:50  <kytv> <html><head><title>408 Request Timeout</title></head>
20:18:51  <kytv> <body><h2>408 Request timeout</h2>
20:18:57  <zzz> and it isn't just the site itself - it's also the recent name change (which perhaps should restart the clock completely) and psi's objection to promoting _any_ coin
20:19:09  <iRelay> Title: DogecoinDark.i2p Official Site (at doged.i2p)
20:19:13  <zzz> ok, that's it for 1)
20:19:24  <str4d> dogedDEV, now that a bit more of the site has loaded, it does look very pretty. But I think that nearly everything down to at least the FB/twitter/etc. links could be done via CSS with a few images for the actual images.
20:19:24  <zzz> 2) http://exchanged.i2p/ console home page request: http://zzz.i2p/topics/236?page=3#p10391
20:19:29  <dogedDEV> so since psi's coin promotion affects the judging, is anoncoin being removed?
20:19:38  <dogedDEV> because that would be silly
20:19:41  <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: How to get my Eepsite added to the Router Console home page (at zzz.i2p)
20:19:46  <str4d> So I'm -1 on 1) for now.
20:19:47  <zzz> is the exchanged.i2p operator here?
20:20:06  <abyss> zzz,  hey i am here
20:20:31  <zzz> ok abyss please tell us about your site, and respond to any objections raised on the zzz.i2p thread
20:20:43  <psi> anoncoin is dead
20:20:47  <psi> (imo)
20:20:51  <dogedDEV> thats sad =\
20:21:00  <dogedDEV> anywho, moving on. ill resubmit.
20:21:00  <abyss> psi, its not dead
20:21:26  <dogedDEV> im in favor of exchanged.i2p, if my opinion matters.
20:21:31  <abyss> ok zzz the main concern is that i am not reliable to be trusted with other peoples money
20:21:47  <zzz> tell us about the site first please
20:21:50  <dogedDEV> site loads quick, trades are quick. alot of doged users have traded there and without issue.
20:21:58  <abyss> ok
20:22:26  <abyss> Exchanged.i2p is a site where users can trade cryptocurrncies such as bitcoin litecoin anoncoin dogecoindark ect anonymously
20:22:47  <abyss> we have been operating since july 1
20:23:00  <abyss> alpha testing started june1
20:23:49  <abyss> also im been voched for by the anoncoin and dogecoindark development team
20:24:19  <abyss> anoncoin dev is not here currently but here is the link https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/3cxk7k/exchangedi2p_anonymous_exchange/
20:24:23  <iRelay> Title: Exchanged.i2p Anonymous Exchange : CryptoCurrency (at www.reddit.com)
20:24:24  <zzz> there seems to be two objections, that the site is too rough/early, and that we shouldn't be endorsing anything financial
20:25:17  <zzz> here's what I said in the request thread: We haven't had a request for an exchange before. While I don't feel that we are qualified to assess any market's legitimacy and stability, I think we should try, as there may be some sort of implied blessing by putting a link in the console.
20:25:28  <dogedDEV> by placing an icon on a menu, i dont see that as endorsing, personally. unless you also encouraged its use over other people applying for the same thing he is.
20:25:49  <zab@kyirc> the roughness makes load times fast and doesn't affect the usefulness
20:26:12  <zab@kyirc> for any trader fast response time is much more important than prettyness
20:26:13  <dogedDEV> i dig the ascii menus. reminds me of back in the day.
20:26:19  <abyss> i tried to create a design that would maximise usability
20:26:19  <dogedDEV> i think alot of users feel the same way.
20:26:19  <zzz> anybody have any opinion on this? Is it an endorsement? Should we attempt to verify? Or should we not put markets or trading platforms on the home page at all?
20:26:34  <dogedDEV> right, response time and the admin being around as long as he has, i think its a go.
20:27:00  <str4d> From a usability PoV I think it seems good (but have not made any trades)
20:27:15  <kytv> I'm more or less indifferent. My objection to #1 is the extreme slowness in loading. This one, at least, is *very* quick.
20:27:17  <dogedDEV> he even recently added an api at the request of an analytical site
20:27:17  <anonimal> Yes, since we have the power to pick and choose, every link becomes an implied endorsement.
20:27:24  <zab@kyirc> I'm definitely in favor of markets and exchanges and anything financial over i2p in general.  It adds a dimension to the broad usability of i2p which  helps attract people
20:27:27  <str4d> I have suggested there be a light theme too though, because the dark contrast is hard for some users
20:27:33  <zzz> has anybody here used this site for any trades, please speak up
20:27:37  <lbt> User-opinion here: I think that information should be easily findable, but also think it shouldn't be part of a router :o Maybe a a link to thematically sorted list of active domains or something on the router-console?
20:27:45  <str4d> (particularly blue on black, although the shade of blue is a bit better than last time)
20:28:10  <zab@kyirc> str4d: 80's mainframe colors FTW ;-)
20:28:27  <zzz> let's not get into detailed color advice here. Big picture, decision time. Yay or nay and why please.
20:28:38  <amknesia> Is there already a statement on the router homepage stating 'links below are not an endorsement but simply sites that have met the minimum guidelines to be posted on the homepage'?
20:29:03  <dogedDEV> yay - site loads quick, ive used it and it works as expected. abyss is always around and easy to get a hold of.
20:29:08  <dogedDEV> amknesia, thats a good idea.
20:29:35  <dogedDEV> i2p developers do not condone/endorse the sites listed in the console.
20:29:44  <zzz> Is it broadly useful to the i2p community/
20:29:56  <zzz> explicit or not, it's an implied endorsement
20:30:02  <zab@kyirc> absollutely
20:30:20  <str4d> Broadly useful? IMHO yes.
20:30:31  <dogedDEV> as long as fiat doesnt get involved i think it makes a great addition.
20:30:39  <anonimal> Yes, broadly useful, and the site has improved somewhat in usability.
20:30:48  <zzz> has _anybody_ here actually used it for a trade?
20:30:48  <Lady3Jane> The endorsement is implicit, especially to newcomers and especially because a lot of links are indeed official
20:30:58  <anonimal> No.
20:31:07  <zab@kyirc> even if fiat is involved it's still a great addition
20:31:07  <dogedDEV> i have traded on it.
20:31:27  <anonimal> >The endorsement is implicit
20:31:28  <amknesia> zzz: I have, only a few satoshis worth of trade though.
20:31:28  <dogedDEV> small amounts, but over time, and its always worked
20:31:30  <str4d> But with fiat involved, it is harder for the site itself to be justifiably anonymous
20:31:33  <anonimal> Yes, and disclaimer would be useless.
20:31:33  <Lady3Jane> pilgrim-wu (who isn't here) is deeply involved in cryptoexchanges (even manages one based in W. China). He's used exchanged.i2p before. He loves it, zzz
20:32:25  <abyss> for those that are intrested i can give you a few doged's to trade with
20:32:25  <zzz> ok let's wrap this up. The consensus isn't clear to me, so please enter +1 for yes and -1 for no
20:32:32  <dogedDEV> +1
20:32:35  <str4d> From a "risk" level, if the site is only exchanging cryptocoins, then it is subject to the market forces of other exchanges wrt value
20:32:42  <abyss> that way you can test it out for yourself :)
20:32:45  <zab@kyirc> +1
20:33:33  <trolly> +1
20:33:33  <Lady3Jane> (I'm not sure if I have suffrage here, but...)  +1
20:33:48  <anonimal> -1: No sex, drugs, money, or rock&roll in router console.
20:33:56  <kytv> —— = "neutral / not negative"
20:34:30  <abyss> +1 if my vote counts
20:34:33  <psi> +1 no drugs sex money rock/roll in router console
20:34:38  <trolly> no rock&roll??  OMG anonimal!!
20:34:41  <obscuratus> -1: Good site, but I agree it's an endorsement.
20:34:49  <psi> rather, -1
20:34:57  <abyss> psi, :)
20:34:57  <trolly> +1 drugs, sexs and rock&roll averywhere
20:35:01  <abyss> :(
20:35:09  <amknesia> Question: What about having a links page/site instead that isn't the homepage but is linked from it. This would avoid the homepage 'implied endorsement' which also making it easy for newbies to find sites they might be interested in. Are any of the current homepage sites set up to provide that?
20:35:21  <obscuratus> amknesia: +1
20:35:28  <lbt> amknesia: +1
20:35:29  <Lady3Jane> From a PR perspective, anonimal, I agree on the sex and drugs. We don't want the router to become the i2p equivalent of the hidden wiki. But why are currency exchanges inherently negative?
20:35:47  <Lady3Jane> router console*
20:35:56  <anonimal> I would lean towards amknesia's idea.
20:36:01  <dogedDEV> i think private networks have an indirect obligation to protect crypto, especially as of late.
20:36:05  <dogedDEV> but thats just my two cents.
20:36:05  <zzz> +1 from me (barely)
20:36:19  <str4d> Lady3Jane, The inherent problem with an anonymous currency exchange is that there is every chance the site could disappear with all funds, and no recompense
20:36:35  <dogedDEV> that can happen on any exchange
20:36:43  <dogedDEV> and has happened on clearnet exchanges.
20:36:51  <anonimal> ^ Then I see no reason to endorse yet another one here.
20:36:57  <amknesia> str4d: Just as a counterarguement: That has already happened with *PUBLIC* non-anonymous exchanges, so is that really any more of a threat?
20:36:57  <str4d> Has, yes. But there are avenues for at least partial recompense
20:37:08  <Lady3Jane> abyss: Beyond the typical eskrow system, do you have any contingencies to ensure to the public (but above all, to the devs who want to endorse you) that you won't skip town with a sack of bills?
20:37:17  <abyss> anonimal, becasue this one is private
20:37:25  <zzz> I count 4+ and 3-, but we could also declare that's too close and let's reconsider at a future meeting
20:37:31  <str4d> Lady3Jane, I don't actually see an escrow
20:37:37  <str4d> (at least not in the security list)
20:37:46  <str4d> I did want to ask about multisig too
20:37:58  <anonimal> And maybe we should review the standards for submission.
20:38:19  <abyss> there is no escrow or mutlisig because thats not really practice for an low latency exchange
20:38:29  <zzz> kytv, str4d, guns to your head, please vote + or -
20:38:32  <amknesia> Maybe it is time for a crypto-rep service?
20:39:05  <dogedDEV> similar to cryptoasian you mean?
20:39:17  * anonimal doesn't care who does what or where or when, this is only for java i2p's router console.
20:39:25  <zzz> last call for votes
20:39:27  <str4d> I am a tentative +0.5 at this stage. I think the site is beneficial for users, but the risks should probably be better-conveyed to users.
20:39:56  <dogedDEV> maybe abyss can put a disclaimer on the site?
20:40:10  <zzz> how about approved if he puts a disclaimer on there then?
20:40:16  <dogedDEV> and that would at least pacify the people voting nay because of risk
20:40:27  <abyss> i can do that
20:40:44  <str4d> There's always a risk, but as long as users are explicitly aware of the risks, I
20:40:46  <kytv> zzz: +1 (with disclaimer of sorts)
20:40:51  <str4d> 'm not opposed to it.
20:40:52  <zzz> we've spent too long on this, if we don't decide in the next 60 seconds I'm moving on anyway
20:41:04  <zzz> ok, sounds like approval if he adds the disclaimer
20:41:07  <zzz> anything else on 2) ?
20:41:20  <dogedDEV> zzz: when is the next meeting?
20:41:23  <amknesia> Is it difficult to make it probationary?
20:41:27  <fox> +1 for abyss's exchange, code is clean
20:41:32  <zzz> 3) http://i2pwiki.i2p/ console home page request: http://zzz.i2p/topics/236?page=3#p10437
20:41:34  <amknesia> IE you could always move it after the next session if there are issues?
20:41:38  <zzz> is the i2pwiki.i2p operator here?
20:41:50  <iRelay> Title: I2PWiki (at i2pwiki.i2p)
20:42:33  <zzz> any discussion on i2pwiki pro/con?
20:42:43  <fox> isn't open4you.i2p just a zombie?
20:42:56  <zzz> please stay on topic everybody
20:42:56  * anonimal loading
20:42:59  <kytv> +1 for i2pwiki. It actually loads and the user makes backups available.
20:43:10  <str4d> dogedDEV, next homepage meeting will be week before 0.9.24 release
20:43:11  <psi> +1 i2pwiki
20:43:22  <fox> -1 open4you
20:43:31  <trolly> open4you.i2p works sometimes and sometimes no fox
20:43:31  <dogedDEV> i2host isnt loading it for me
20:43:31  <zzz> any objections to i2pwiki?
20:43:41  <zzz> please stay on topic everybody
20:43:43  <abyss> i think it is decent
20:43:44  <str4d> i2pwiki.i2p by default redirects to B32
20:43:53  <fox> trolly: it loads sometimes but i don't think they still give out hosting
20:43:54  <trolly> admin did not answer, I think open4you.i2p was hacked or something
20:43:57  <str4d> (at least for me)
20:44:03  <zzz> please stay on topic everybody
20:44:14  <anonimal> i2p slogans are still there. That was an issue before.
20:44:31  <trolly> he created admin2.ope4you.i2p later, but I can login only in admin.open4you.i2p
20:44:32  <zzz> is the slogan issue enough to reject it?
20:44:40  <abyss> str4d, i think thats a mediawiki issue, mine was having the same issue
20:44:45  <zzz> please stay on topic everybody. open4you is NOT the topic.
20:45:05  <str4d> Also, interesting - ugha.i2p is back up
20:45:19  <anonimal> Yes, because of some of the content. Other than that, I would +1.
20:45:30  <abyss>     2015-10 New wiki eepsite: As ugha.i2p was down from may 2015 to 2015-10-30, a new wiki was launched (http://i2pwiki.i2p). It is running on MediaWiki. Please move to this wiki.
20:45:30  <kytv> i2pslogans isn't an issue. That was also on ugha.i2p. Users can police that just as they could on ugha
20:45:31  <dogedDEV> -1 on i2pwiki.i2p
20:45:44  <abyss> *from  ugha.i2p. front page
20:45:46  <iRelay> Title: I2PWiki (at i2pwiki.i2p)
20:45:47  <str4d> I am generally +1 for i2pwiki.i2p, but would really like the redirection issue fixed
20:45:53  <dogedDEV> Could not find the following destination: http://i2host.i2p/cgi-bin/i2hostjump?i2pwiki.i2p/
20:46:07  <iRelay> Title: I2HOST Jump (at i2host.i2p)
20:46:07  <str4d> dogedDEV, http://nrbnshsndzb6homcipymkkngngw4s6twediqottzqdfyvrvjw3pq.b32.i2p is the B32 for i2pwiki
20:46:11  <zzz> ok we have + from psi and kytv and str4d , - from anonimal and dogedev. Others please vote
20:46:14  <zzz> me: +1
20:46:16  <abyss> str4d, could it be a i2prouter issue?
20:46:17  <kytv> It's just an i2ptunnel setting I'm sure, it's not a mediawiki problem.
20:46:20  <iRelay> Title: I2PWiki (at nrbnshsndzb6homcipymkkngngw4s6twediqottzqdfyvrvjw3pq.b32.i2p)
20:46:24  <fox> topic isn't cleaning up /home?
20:46:24  <lbt> str4d: If you haven't noticed, check the status-page of uhga, it seems it was "up" all the time
20:46:26  <obscuratus> +1
20:46:49  <abyss> str4d, i find that when sites use relitive links the i2prouter defaults to the b32
20:46:53  <zzz> fox, we are on agenda item 3)
20:47:02  <fox> +1 i2pwiki it loads and is useful
20:47:23  <zzz> ok I count 6 + and 2 -, that sounds like approved, any final objections?
20:47:27  <abyss> +1 i think its usefull and works well
20:47:51  <anonimal> +1, I was wrong.
20:47:56  <zzz> last call for 3)
20:47:57  <anonimal> Slogans were fixed.
20:48:06  * anonimal saw cached version.
20:48:15  <zzz> 4) http://lenta.i2p/ console home page request: http://zzz.i2p/topics/236?page=3#p10439
20:48:22  <zzz> is the lenta.i2p operator here?
20:48:35  <iRelay> Title: Lenta.i2p | Твоя новостная лента (at lenta.i2p)
20:48:37  <zab@kyirc> +1 from me.  It loads quickly, the news is real and the layout is pleasant
20:48:48  <zzz> this one appeared to have broad support on the zzz.i2p thread, and in #ru when I asked there a couple of weeks ago
20:49:12  <zzz> any other thoughts pro/con?
20:49:34  <kytv> —— = "neutral / not negative"
20:49:45  <trolly> is i2pwiki's admin around?
20:49:55  <zab@kyirc> having something catering to .ru users on the home page can be seen as a sign of good will
20:49:57  * anonimal No objections. xopowo.
20:50:08  <str4d> I have NFI what it says, but good that we reflect the Russian userbase.
20:50:14  <abyss> +1 for lenta.i2p
20:50:18  <zzz> sounds like approved to me. last call for 4)
20:50:21  <psi> +1 for lenta.i2p
20:50:43  <kytv> +0.5 based on approval from people who can read Russian
20:50:51  <str4d> Title for it should be in Russian, so users can instantly tell that it is a RU site
20:51:12  <amknesia> Uhmm, dumb question, but should there maybe be a split in links based on 'currently selected language' versus 'foreign language' links?
20:51:16  <str4d> (both so non-russian speakers don't click, and russian speakers do)
20:51:30  <str4d> amknesia, that's a thought I just had myself :)
20:51:50  <zzz> we can always tweak the name in the console
20:51:57  <zzz> 5) CCC preparation update from Oct. 6 meeting: http://i2p-projekt.i2p/en/meetings/239
20:52:02  <iRelay> Title: I2P Development Meeting 239 - I2P (at i2p-projekt.i2p)
20:52:34  <zzz> I just threw this agenda item in there in case there was something to discuss. i believe the banner and the candy and all that is under control.
20:52:47  <zzz> we finished the budget decisions at last meeting.
20:52:59  <zzz> If anybody has anything to bring up about CCC, now's the time, else we'll move on
20:53:56  <zzz> last call for 5)
20:54:31  <str4d> Nothing from me
20:54:36  <str4d> You kids have fun there
20:54:46  <zzz> 6) forum.i2p replacement proposal  (hottuna, dg) - followup from Oct. 6 meeting: http://i2p-projekt.i2p/en/meetings/239
20:55:13  <zzz> ok the notes from last meeting are up (thx kytv) and at the end you'll see that hottuna and dg were due to come back with a proposal.
20:55:30  <zzz> hottuna and dg, you are up. However neither appears to be here?
20:56:05  <zzz> anybody else have anything on forum replacement that extends (not rehashes) the discussion from last meeting?
20:56:51  <str4d> I have something tangentially related that I'd like to tack onto the meeting if we have time.
20:56:56  <obscuratus> What about forums.i2p?
20:58:30  <zzz> ok, anything else on 6) ?
20:58:30  <str4d> I think a user forum is a good idea
20:58:30  <trolly> freedomforum.i2p works too
20:58:30  <str4d> And I think that having it clearnet-accessible (not just via inproxy) is a good idea
20:58:30  <obscuratus> str4d: +1
20:58:30  <zzz> the particular agenda item is whether there should be an 'official' replacement
20:58:30  <trolly> and we have anew forum..  http://es.i2p
20:58:30  <trolly> but is only Spanish, but anyone can create a channel in En, of course
20:58:39  <zzz> no site, 'official' or not, has requested to be on the console home page
20:58:42  <trolly> channel/thread *
20:58:54  <zzz> ok, anything else on 6) ?
20:59:01  <Z0rg1nc> mm, how you will protect new forum users if it will be down too?
20:59:07  <str4d> If we have people willing to maintain an official forum, I am +1 on it
20:59:14  <Z0rg1nc> *if not only admins aalowed to speak
20:59:39  * anonimal would really like dg's hottuna's presence before speaking up on 6)
20:59:44  <zzz> I'm +1 for lots of forums, -0.1 on an official one
20:59:50  <trolly> I can't say if http://es.i2p's admin would want to maintain official forum too, sorry
20:59:53  <amknesia> I move to shelve it for next discussion.
21:00:13  <str4d> +1 on tabling
21:00:16  <zzz> as hottuna and dg aren't here, let's table this
21:01:20  <zzz> 7) str4d  go
21:01:20  <str4d> s/tabling/shelving
21:01:20  <str4d> Okay
21:01:20  <str4d> Here is an idea I have had rattling around my head for a few months now
21:01:20  <str4d> We define *.i2p.i2p as an unassignable space.
21:01:27  <str4d> And reserve it for use by I2P devs / services
21:01:48  <psi> +1 sounds fun
21:01:51  <str4d> This gets us around whatever funky stuff ever happens wrt I2P addressbook / naming space
21:02:05  <amknesia> Sounds like a plan to me.
21:02:07  <str4d> we define in the naming spec what Dest each 3LD refers to
21:02:19  <str4d> And can change it at any time
21:02:37  <str4d> (possibly by having an in-net hosts.txt that we host containing the current specified Dests)
21:03:08  <anonimal> >we define in the naming spec
21:03:21  <anonimal> And that would protect against maliciousness, yes?
21:03:50  <str4d> Yes. The spec is public and any malicious changes would be completely visible
21:03:55  <zzz> str4d, it's already blocked by stats.i2p registrar and I think most of the others. Not currently blocked in the addressbook import though.
21:04:23  <zzz> not sure what 'funky' stuff you have in mind
21:05:20  <str4d> zzz, the problem with the current addressbook system is that it is only pseudo-global.
21:05:36  <str4d> Now, that itself is debatable, for future
21:05:37  <eche|on> thats good
21:05:53  <str4d> But IMHO services run by *us* *should* be global.
21:06:23  <amknesia> Stupid idea: What about moving to a namecoin style setup with some sort of PoS system with a required amount of cpu time to retain your domains?
21:06:30  <str4d> Easiest way to do that is to define a section of the namespace as controlled by us. Logical section is *.i2p.i2p
21:06:39  <str4d> amknesia, that is outside the scope of this meeting topic
21:06:43  <zzz> str4d, maybe write up your proposal in the zzz.i2p naming subforum?
21:06:54  <amknesia> Ok
21:07:01  <str4d> zzz, will do, when I have time to do so (next month probably)
21:07:11  <zzz> ok, anything else on 7)
21:07:37  <zzz> anything else for the meeting?
21:07:40  <str4d> Heh, on that point, I also have another proposal: make proposals a bit more formal and visible
21:08:08  <zab@kyirc> unmute drz and merge fux (just kidding)
21:08:08  <zzz> ok, now you're just getting meta, so....
21:08:14  <str4d> Brief 8)
21:08:28  <zzz> 8) str4d  go
21:08:30  <str4d> zzz, legit topic, promise :)
21:08:48  <str4d> Right now, all proposals are proposed on zzz.i2p
21:08:54  <str4d> Their general visibility is IMHO poor at best
21:08:57  * anonimal looks forward to str4d's post
21:09:17  <zzz> agreed, so propose something better :)
21:09:24  <str4d> Take e.g. the hostname service feed improvement, getting lost
21:09:46  <zzz> i'm not holding my site precious. You have a proposal?
21:09:54  <str4d> I propose that proposals be formally stored in the I2P website repo, and made visible
21:10:09  <zzz> fine w/ me
21:10:15  <str4d> With links to the canonical discussion thread on zzz.i2p
21:10:22  <str4d> Originally I planned on a separate new repo
21:10:32  <zzz> can you set that up/
21:10:32  <str4d> But the I2P website serves two purposes:
21:10:36  <zzz> ?
21:10:37  <str4d> - Define spec of the I2P network
21:10:47  <str4d> - Document the reference implementation (Java)
21:10:55  <zzz> anybody have any objections?
21:11:03  <xmz> no
21:11:11  <str4d> And since the specs are already part of the website, I simultaneously propose to elevate their position
21:11:27  <zab@kyirc> as long as the proposals are plain text - don't put binaries in mtn pls
21:11:28  <anonimal> Where would it go on the site?
21:11:38  <str4d> And define them as non-translatable for simplicity
21:11:46  <str4d> zab, hell no
21:11:59  <str4d> anonimal, currently they are at /langcode/docs/spec/*
21:12:03  <str4d> (the specs)
21:12:04  <zzz> I think str4d already has carte blanche for minor website organization
21:12:12  <zzz> so can we wrap this up?
21:12:17  <zzz> anything else on 8) ?
21:12:20  <str4d> I propose instead having /spec/* for specs, and /spec/proposal/* for proposals
21:12:46  <str4d> zzz, yes, but this also goes into proposal processes
21:12:49  <zzz> lets not use a meeting for discussing website path details
21:12:56  <anonimal> I only ask because the site's layout is TMI at once for my taste, imho.
21:13:08  <str4d> end goal is that people outside I2P can then view our proposals.
21:13:22  <str4d> anonimal, redesign is ongoing, save it for later :)
21:13:25  <zzz> agreed and I didn't hear any objections
21:13:27  <zzz> anything else on 8) ?
21:13:30  * anonimal :)
21:13:44  <zzz> anything else for the meeting?
21:13:54  <anonimal> Yes, briefly.
21:14:04  <zzz> 9) anonimal go
21:14:04  <abyss> so did exchanged.i2p make it with a disclaimer?
21:14:18  <abyss> something like "Disclaimer: trading cryptocurrencies is risky, trusting anonymous people with your money is also risky. "
21:14:32  <zzz> abyss yes
21:14:33  <zzz> 9) anonimal go
21:14:45  <abyss> \o/
21:14:46  <anonimal> str4d's *i2p.i2p made me think of the IETF comments made at I2PCon and https://blog.torproject.org/blog/landmark-hidden-services-onion-names-reserved-ietf
21:14:49  <iRelay> Title: Landmark for Hidden Services: .onion names reserved by the IETF | The Tor Blog (at blog.torproject.org)
21:15:05  <amknesia> abyss: Don't forget the 'Please ignore the man behind the website with the virtual suitcase and fueled dc3' :)
21:15:13  <anonimal> So the question is:
21:15:27  <xmz> could also add that the service is not endorsed in any way by the i2p project (sorry cant see.all of the prior discussion, im on my phone)
21:15:49  <zzz> we're on 9), please stay on topic
21:16:09  <anonimal> Are we pushing for IANA?
21:16:12  * anonimal sorry lag
21:16:26  <str4d> anonimal, yes. I am I2P's representative in that process.
21:16:58  <anonimal> Yay! Anything to report?
21:17:02  <str4d> I have also volunteered to be on the design committee that is going to propose changes/improvements to the RFC 6761 process
21:17:31  <str4d> .i2p was proposed along with .onion, .gnu, .bit and a few others by the GNUnet team
21:17:40  <zzz> great, thanks for continuing to do that str4d
21:17:42  <str4d> That sat around for several years being kicked back and forth
21:17:56  <zzz> I'm sure you can fill him in more after the meeting
21:17:58  <anonimal> Yes, thank you str4d.
21:18:05  <zzz> anything else on 9) ?
21:18:09  <zzz> anything else for the meeting?
21:18:31  <str4d> well...
21:18:34  <str4d> (jk ;)
21:18:40  <anonimal> lol
21:18:47  <sadie_i2p> ha
21:19:01  <zzz> thanks everybody. /me ****bafs**** the meeting closed