I2P dev meeting, February 10, 2009 @ 21:00 UTC

Quick recap

  • Present:

altGuest, badger, dream, eche|on, hottuna_, l00kns33, unixfr3ak, welt, welterde, zzz,

تمام وقایع IRC

20:58:32  <unixfr3ak> dev meeting eh?
20:59:27  -*- dream turns on devo
21:00:25  <welt> dream: ah.. glad you're here too :)
21:00:51  <badger> 0) Hello
21:00:55  <dream> you are?
21:00:58  <badger> 1) I2P 0.7
21:01:02  <badger> 2) Syndie
21:01:06  <badger> 3) Donations
21:01:15  <badger> 4) ????
21:01:21  <badger> 5) A short poem recital by zzz
21:01:39  <badger> 0) Hello
21:01:53  <altGuest> hi
21:02:00  <badger> welcome all to the #207th dev meeting
21:02:05  <badger> 'lo
21:02:20  <hottuna_> 'lo!
21:02:40  <eche|on> welcome!
21:02:43  <zzz> so, let's start by covering what's happened since April 10 2007, if anything 
21:02:48  <badger> Just to put that in perspective it's been nearly 2 years since hte last one
21:03:06  <badger> well... bush is out....obama in....
21:03:36  <dream> lol USA
21:03:51  <badger> 1) I2P 0.7
21:03:56  <eche|on> I guess the 0.7 release note is a good idea what happend to I2P
21:04:20  <badger> Well it looks like the rollout of 0.7 has gone fairly smoothly
21:04:22  <badger> with about 84% network coverage now
21:04:29  <unixfr3ak> not bad
21:04:48  <eche|on> :-)
21:04:48  <hottuna_> How much ahs the network grown since 0.7?
21:04:48  <badger> A big cheer to the dev team and release crew for getting it out of the door
21:04:52  <unixfr3ak> one bug i may point out that i and another user have noticed though is
21:04:52  <hottuna_> or even since Christmas?
21:05:21  -*- welt waits for stats.i2p to load..
21:05:28  -=- Sie sind nun als welterde bekannt
21:05:31  <badger> hottuna_: a fairly slow but steady growth if the stats are anything to go by
21:05:41  <unixfr3ak> adding new private hosts in susidns requirs manual editing of the privathosts.txt file
21:06:08  <welterde> zzz: wasn't that the bug you fixed recently?
21:06:18  <welterde> or was that sth different?
21:06:25  <eche|on> the stats shows a steady slow growing
21:06:35  <zzz> yeah, i broke it in 0.7, just fixed it yesterday, will be in -4
21:06:40  <eche|on> welterde: yes, he seens to have fixed it
21:07:05  <badger> something to look forward to in 7.0.1
21:07:14  <welterde> zzz: good.. that's done then
21:07:16  <badger> eerm 0.7.1
21:07:19  <eche|on> more users :-)
21:07:22  <zzz> sorry about that
21:07:35  <unixfr3ak> what are you guys going to do about network lag...its a growing problem it seems , on the weekends i2p seems overloaded
21:07:56  <welterde> maybe some more streaming lib tweaks?
21:07:57  <unixfr3ak> ethier i think more users is good
21:08:00  <badger> zzz: well you've fixed and improved enough stuff to be allowed the odd breakage :)
21:08:33  <hottuna_> I've suggested motivating user to share by having some ratio indicator on the console
21:08:57  <unixfr3ak> that sounds good
21:09:14  <eche|on> network load went big last month
21:09:17  <zzz> freak, i'm looking at tweaking the capacity calculation in the peer profiles just a little, to react better when things get busy.
21:09:20  <eche|on> months, looks fairly well so far
21:09:51  <hottuna_> zzz: wicked :)
21:09:55  <unixfr3ak> this may be ambitious bout how about using a cron job in linux or whatever windows uses to volunteer bandwidth to i2p when their computer is not being used
21:10:17  <zzz> these things have to be adjusted with great care though, and it takes a full release cycle to test any change
21:10:21  <hottuna_> a scheduler would be and awesome solution aswell
21:10:24  <unixfr3ak> to dumb it down
21:10:28  <badger> The publicity push for release 0.7 seems to have had a marginal effect on numbers, but not nearly the impact I would have hoped for
21:10:41  <unixfr3ak> detect when network / cpu is idle and use it/ dont use when it is
21:10:43  <welterde> zzz: that recent addition to I2CP doesn't allow that yet, right?
21:10:52  <badger> some good coverage in german news sites though
21:11:04  <badger> but slashdot/digg/reddit was rather pathetic
21:11:09  <zzz> allow what welterde ?
21:11:29  <welterde> zzz: to change the ratio/up-bw/down-bw from outside the routerconsole
21:11:29  <eche|on> badger: it needs some time for users to get known to it and keep steady with it :-)
21:11:32  <unixfr3ak> and a defult auto startup registry entry would be nice or a simple shell script for unix
21:12:04  <zzz> no welterde it has nothing to do with that
21:12:08  <hottuna_> dunno about the pr.. i suppose that our 'brand name' will grow every time we have a new release adn a pr wave to that
21:12:13  <welterde> zzz: thought so :/
21:12:56  <zzz> hopefully the gulli interview w/ me will be published soon, but I haven't heard from him in a week
21:13:06  <unixfr3ak> is i2p ready to ask for volunteer bandwidth from sponsors? (other than me with my tiny connection)
21:13:39  <welterde> hmm.. that might be worth a try
21:13:50  <dream> I don't think anyone has ever said no to volunteered bandwidth.
21:14:12  <unixfr3ak> the tor network has a lot of sponsored nodes, but on the other hand a lot of nodes on the same subnet would be suspicious to users and offer someone more control over the network
21:14:37  <welterde> i think we "fixed" that already
21:14:59  <hottuna_> sponsoring would'nt be a bad idea
21:14:59  <hottuna_> jas a simple html tab on the mainpage?
21:14:59  <hottuna_> just*
21:15:05  <unixfr3ak> randomly placed nodes by individual volunteers seems to be safer
21:15:05  <unixfr3ak> but not as practical
21:15:15  <unixfr3ak> most people by nature will leech
21:15:44  <dream> I don't think that's necessarily true unixfr3ak, but it's good to prepare for non-participants.
21:16:21  <unixfr3ak> for example
21:16:40  <unixfr3ak> someone who just starts the i2p router, and has no idea what it does and runs i2phex
21:16:49  <unixfr3ak> constantly downloading
21:17:11  <unixfr3ak> mabye the defualt bandwith should be changed
21:17:22  <hottuna_> has been changed in 0.7
21:17:34  <unixfr3ak> or users should be asked for connection speed during the install for more accurate bandwith shareing limits
21:18:26  <unixfr3ak> or mabye a virus that installs i2p as a backdoor :P
21:18:34  <welterde> heh
21:18:40  <hottuna_> would be a great idea.. the installer should support that, right?
21:19:08  <welterde> the first or the second? :>
21:19:08  <unixfr3ak> my joke or asking the connection bandwith?
21:19:23  <welterde> first) probably yes
21:19:26  <unixfr3ak> it should be a line or 2 in a config file somewhere
21:19:39  <unixfr3ak> the one without the :P
21:20:59  <badger> download limits for users who don't share upstream bandwidth?
21:21:15  <unixfr3ak> sounds intresting
21:21:20  <unixfr3ak> but
21:21:33  <unixfr3ak> i dont think we should go to such desprate measures yet...
21:21:38  <dream> by default it shares up to 100% of the bandwidth unixfr3ak. once it gets a few client tunnels, the majority is spent on intermediate ones.
21:21:45  <welterde> don't routers already punish other routers, who don't route tunnels?
21:22:00  <unixfr3ak> yes
21:22:00  <dream> and I think i2p is already load balanced. I sure cannot download more than I upload on the bandwidth tab.
21:22:25  <unixfr3ak> i think so but, if many people leech at one time  it will still put a hevy load on the network
21:22:32  <badger> perhaps this is just a case of being more informative to first time users
21:22:35  <unixfr3ak> especially if thier ips are dynamic
21:22:46  <eche|on> http://stats.i2p/cgi-bin/tot.cgi?a=bandwidthReceiveBps.5m&s=365&u=y
21:22:56  <badger> make it clear that giving back to the network improves your experience
21:23:07  <unixfr3ak> yes
21:23:18  <unixfr3ak> and to run it when they are not using thier pc
21:23:36  <unixfr3ak> insted of just letting thier connection that they are paying for be idle
21:23:51  <dream> most people turn their computers off, it's really sad
21:24:09  <unixfr3ak> yes
21:24:12  <dream> paying their ISP per month, when they could instead for the price of 4 light bulbs...
21:24:15  <l00kns33> i think most people understand this -  i even think most people who use i2p are geeks themself ;)
21:24:32  <badger> anyway moving on - anything else to add for 1) I2P 0.7?
21:24:55  <unixfr3ak> for now yes
21:25:16  -*- welterde waits for his signal..
21:25:20  <unixfr3ak> but that may change in the future
21:25:25  <eche|on> badger: no
21:25:25  <badger> 2) Syndie
21:25:37  <welterde> ok then :)
21:25:37  -*- badger passes the 70s boom mike over to welterde
21:25:45  <badger> *mic
21:26:15  <welterde> as you may (or may not) i recently finished the effort to apply these patches from MOSFET
21:26:20  <welterde> +know
21:26:35  <unixfr3ak> leave e out on the forums i don't use them :P , brb cigarette
21:27:14  <welterde> which should fix some bugs and disable that (imho) b0rked default ui
21:27:26  <welterde> instead the swt one is used, which most users find easier
21:27:42  <badger> <jrandom>w0rd</jrandom>
21:28:11  <welterde> hmm?
21:28:30  <dream> it's nice to hear someone was working on getting failed synchronizations to retry.
21:28:40  <badger> welterde: sorry, old dev meeting joke
21:28:59  <badger> is there a new public syndie archive somwhere?
21:29:06  <welterde> anyway.. i hope i have time soon to replace that b0rked ;) index thingy
21:29:09  <welterde> badger: yup
21:29:25  <welterde> http://syndie.welterde.(i2p|de)/
21:29:52  <dream> making it possible to run syndie using a remote database is important I'd say, to make it easier for people to run their own archives.
21:29:54  <welterde> but you can't post there (yet) as it is just a static archive
21:30:47  <welterde> have to that one to the default ones too
21:30:56  <welterde> will do that soonish
21:31:16  <eche|on> so syndie work goes on
21:31:32  <welterde> yup
21:31:54  <welterde> currently trying to profile syndie..
21:32:29  <welterde> but wasn't able to spend much time in that area though..
21:32:59  <eche|on> so much work to do...
21:33:14  <welterde> yes :/
21:33:17  <dream> running syndie in text mode is tricky, since the interface seems to be slipping behind its current behavior
21:33:17  <dream> usually it works if you just leave it in --cli, but when it freezes there's no real indication.
21:33:41  <welterde> yeah.. the cli is b0rked too currently :/
21:34:00  <welterde> imho we should seperate syndie into multiple parts, eg. libsyndie, gui, cli, ...
21:34:12  <badger> makes sense to me
21:34:19  <welterde> that should make writing custom extensions, etc. easier
21:34:29  <dream> What sort of stuff would libsyndie cover?
21:34:36  <badger> early v0.0.1 syndie's UI was just a top on the cli binary
21:34:48  <badger> but it seems that idea got lost enroute
21:34:55  <dream> it even has the text console today.
21:35:23  <welterde> dream: message decoding, archive syncing, etc. etc.
21:35:34  <welterde> most of the logic
21:36:06  <dream> so libsyndie is pretty much an interface over the database, and maybe the archive/ directory?
21:36:09  <badger> aye, gui, cli and webtop should just be a light wrapper
21:36:10  <welterde> imho we should keep gui/cli seperate from the program logic
21:36:42  <welterde> dream: the archive isn't used to store anything.. it's just used for serving the archive
21:37:02  <dream> I know that.
21:37:14  <welterde> but as cli/webtop use it we should put it into the libsyndie as well
21:37:15  <dream> So I guess only the web server would need to deal with that directory.
21:37:35  <dream> filling it and synching from it, sort of like a postfix mail queue.
21:38:00  <welterde> but we should only generate/sync it, when we are actually using it.. not like now..
21:38:08  <welterde> where it is always generated/synced...
21:39:18  <dream> I don't see a problem with only using the archive/ directory for the webserver. It's really just a convenience so you can use existing static file serving functionality.
21:40:07  <welterde> there should be a cli command like generate_archive or something like that imho
21:40:57  <welterde> and we should bring that import.cgi back, so we can run a mostly static archive, while still being able to post
21:41:04  <welterde> or... hmmm... 
21:41:04  <dream> what would you do with that archive using the client interface?
21:41:15  <welterde> rsync with a remote site?
21:41:26  <welterde> that's how syndie.welterde.(i2p|de) works ;)
21:41:43  <dream> trouble with a static archive is that keeping the filesystem up to date with the database is a task that is similar to designing a database.
21:41:59  <welterde> hmm.. not really
21:42:05  <welterde> as it's one-way only
21:43:17  <unixfr3ak> this may be a little off-topic but has anyone considered a datastore function?
21:43:20  <dream> so using a hypothetical --cli someone creates a message. They then generate_archive after creating it? Sounds suspiciously similar to commiting a transaction after inserting.
21:43:52  <unixfr3ak> also in i2phex as i told Complication  previously the bitzi lookup in i2phex inst anonymous 
21:43:55  <dream> magicbutton()
21:44:04  <welterde> dream: uhm.. no
21:44:17  <dream> ...i2phex checks bitzi.com? that's nuts
21:44:37  <unixfr3ak> yes
21:44:39  <welterde> unixfr3ak: there was some work in direction of freenet afair
21:44:43  <dream> welterde, so then their message never goes into the archive/ directory and can't get synchronized...
21:45:20  <welterde> dream: no.. just mean that a transaction is a bit different
21:45:27  <welterde> for example: you don't edit anything
21:45:33  <welterde> (except for the index maybe)
21:46:02  <welterde> generate_archive just dumps the db and updates the indexes while doing that
21:46:41  <unixfr3ak> right click a file
21:47:20  <unixfr3ak> and view bitzi ticket takes you to the non-anon site
21:47:20  <unixfr3ak> lucky my browser is proxyd by i2p, and my alternate one tor
21:47:31  <dream> so how do you get your new database content into the archive? What if syndie dies after inserting a message, but before you save it to the archive/ directory?
21:47:39  <unixfr3ak> 0_0 looks like spongebob missed the meeting
21:47:57  <welterde> dream: nothing.. it's just not archive/
21:48:16  <welterde> but it will be on the next successful run of generate_archive
21:49:01  <dream> what I'd do is let the client run the web server, and the web server checks archive/ and pulls out all the messages in the db not already there. Or just serve the db messages directly.
21:49:23  <dream> generate_archive doesn't seem like the sort of thing you'd want the client to have to keep track of.
21:49:50  <welterde> problem is.. you can't run syndie on every machine
21:50:18  <welterde> for example this server (i2p2.de/welterde.de) has reached it's limited
21:50:36  <welterde> it will heavily swap when i run syndie on it..
21:50:41  <welterde> so i have to run it locally
21:50:46  <eche|on> yeah
21:51:06  <welterde> no problem if i had reasonable upload... which i don't have
21:51:19  <welterde> which most adsl-users don't have..
21:51:45  <badger> anyway - good work with the all the patches welterde - can we expect a release in the not-too-distant-future?
21:51:47  <welterde> so it's either a static archive or one that is slow as hell
21:52:08  <welterde> badger: i think i'll switch from a to b (alpha to beta) soonish
21:52:16  <badger> great
21:52:40  <badger> anything else to add about future dev?
21:52:56  <badger> (syndie)
21:53:10  <welterde> n0pe
21:53:19  <welterde> ;)
21:53:24  <badger> righty in that case
21:53:30  <badger> 3) Donations
21:53:49  -*- badger swings the mic over to eche|on
21:54:00  <eche|on> it's open again!
21:54:18  <eche|on> I created a paypal account and linked it on i2p website
21:54:42  <hottuna_> :D
21:54:47  <badger> coolio
21:54:50  <hottuna_> wicked
21:54:52  <eche|on> but the buttons links to https:// sites of paypal, works not for eepsite yet
21:55:01  <dream> yeah I guess that's an advantage welterde
21:55:08  <eche|on> til yet no entry on that front
21:55:20  <welterde> eche|on: maybe you should add some notes on how to tell you what you should do with it
21:55:29  <eche|on> and undecided about a acc for 2ndlive
21:55:31  <zzz> can you add a link from the donate page to the halloffame page, and/or provide more info on what donations will be used for
21:55:39  <dream> I still think whatever creates the archive should synchronize more than just dump.
21:55:48  <badger> yup
21:56:02  <badger> are you planning to support bounties too?
21:56:10  <eche|on> welterde: acked
21:56:13  <unixfr3ak> you could just use apache
21:56:17  <welterde> dream: premature optimization ;)
21:56:19  <eche|on> zzz: acked
21:56:24  <dream> oops 3)
21:56:24  <dream> I don't have any money sorry T_T
21:56:28  <eche|on> we need a list of stuff to buy/not to buy with donations
21:56:37  <zzz> and shouldnt echelon and welterde subscriptions really be listed as expenses instead?
21:56:40  <unixfr3ak> what web server does i2p include?
21:56:51  <eche|on> badger: yeah, donations are "for all funds" or dedicated for a bounty
21:57:04  <badger> grand
21:57:19  <eche|on> and in paypal there should be a textfield in which you can enter the goal of the money :-)
21:57:33  <zzz> you could also put a news link on the front page that donations are open
21:57:36  <badger> If I donate 1000 EUR do I get a Hot Tuna i2P t-shirt?
21:57:51  <eche|on> but I cannot donate to myself ;-)
21:58:02  <welterde> hottuna_: say yes! ;)
21:58:16  <eche|on> no prob so far, I wait for the first one and announce it ;-)
21:58:35  <zzz> you had your chance to come to 25c3 and get a shirt
21:58:47  <welterde> there is still a 26c3 ;)
21:58:59  <eche|on> acked, zzz - nice idea
22:00:32  <eche|on> so no more from my site to topic donations
22:00:51  -*- welterde waits for paste to load..
22:01:16  <badger> in that case:
22:01:22  <badger> 4) ????
22:01:33  <badger> anyone else have anything to bring to the meeting?
22:01:37  <welterde> yup..
22:01:46  <welterde> but you have to wait until paste loads :/
22:01:52  <eche|on> lets have a piece of cake for everyone!
22:02:31  <welterde> yay! :)
22:02:32  -*- unixfr3ak takes it and runs
22:02:38  <welterde> nooooo
22:03:03  -*- badger *bafs* unifr3ak on the head
22:03:08  <unixfr3ak> yessss
22:03:12  <eche|on> ;-)
22:03:46  <unixfr3ak> i wonder if that part will go in the meting log
22:03:50  <unixfr3ak> :P
22:03:57  <welterde> I hereby announce *drum roll* thmoo: inbljam6y6mynwz2474hk655w2jtv7trofxbqzng4re26ga6rg4a.b32.i2p
22:03:58  <welterde> ;)
22:04:04  <welterde> unixfr3ak: of course it will!
22:04:15  <welterde> everyone get a telnet client and connect ;)
22:04:37  <badger> not a MUD?!
22:04:40  <unixfr3ak> the base 32 key?
22:04:49  <welterde> badger: of course!
22:05:06  <welterde> unixfr3ak: you have to open a client tunnel and connect to that with a telnet/mud client
22:05:08  <welterde> (or use socks)
22:05:38  <unixfr3ak> i dont want to get my socks dirty ill make a tunnel :p
22:05:43  <unixfr3ak> hmm
22:05:47  <unixfr3ak> but for destination
22:05:50  <badger> muddy socks
22:05:59  <unixfr3ak> does that include the .i2p ?
22:06:05  <welterde> unixfr3ak: yup
22:06:11  <welterde> worked for me at least ;)
22:06:56  <dream> you can also look up the dest of a b32 if you want a local copy. zzz showed me how using i2ptunnel's secret cli interface.
22:07:13  <unixfr3ak> Delay Connect:   (for request/response connections)
22:07:18  <unixfr3ak> i take it yes for that
22:07:21  <dream> that reminds me I should get these room descriptions off paper and into the darn thing
22:07:24  <badger> welterde: maybe post a short howto somewhere ;-)
22:07:35  <welterde> dream: yay :)
22:07:46  <welterde> badger: heh.. will do
22:07:58  <unixfr3ak> Trying
22:07:58  <unixfr3ak> Connected to localhost.
22:07:58  <unixfr3ak> Escape character is '^]'.
22:08:02  <unixfr3ak> impressive :P
22:08:02  <welterde> http://paste.i2p2.i2p/show/11/ <- the b64
22:08:08  <l00kns33> one comment about i2p in general:
22:08:08  <l00kns33> i think it is too much "from geeks for geeks" - you need to know what non-geek users need and want 
22:08:16  <unixfr3ak> wonder whats on the other side of the tunnel
22:08:20  <dream> unixfr3ak, if you're extra paranoid yes, otherwise timing attacks may be possible to test if you're online or not. :>
22:08:21  <welterde> l00kns33: they want games! :D
22:08:46  <dream> l00kns33, what could be less geeky than a text based online adventure game!
22:09:01  <welterde> unixfr3ak: works? you should see a menu of some kind
22:09:02  <dream> I put on my robe and wizard hat!
22:09:19  <unixfr3ak> of coarse
22:09:28  <l00kns33> that's one thing - and a good idea :)
22:09:31  <unixfr3ak> Welcome to thmoo-cmd 2.1...
22:09:38  <welterde> ha :)
22:09:47  <welterde> you then need to type connect guest afair
22:09:52  <unixfr3ak> whats so impressive about telnet over i2p?
22:10:30  <zzz> we'll have a connect client soon so you won't need to set up a tunnel
22:10:46  <l00kns33> cool :)
22:10:50  <welterde> unixfr3ak: nothing?
22:11:20  -*- welterde writes up a howto..
22:11:26  <unixfr3ak> has a weird chat feature :P
22:11:45  <badger> well on that note - anything else anyone wants to add?
22:11:46  <welterde> unixfr3ak: you have to "say something"
22:11:50  <dream> I wonder how that would work zzz? You mean like a VPN?
22:12:01  <welterde> dream: more like socks i think
22:12:05  <dream> Or a specially designed telnet client? ._.
22:12:19  <dream> Oh well I did hear about SOCKs.
22:12:29  <unixfr3ak> foo siad hi
22:12:31  <zzz> more like socks
22:12:39  <zzz> telnet localhost 1234
22:13:00  <zzz> connect inbljam6y6mynwz2474hk655w2jtv7trofxbqzng4re26ga6rg4a.b32.i2p
22:13:00  <welterde> unixfr3ak: and to answer you to "say something" ;)
22:13:06  <zzz> thats it
22:13:15  <dream> socks is tricky, since it's like i2ptunnel except just about anyone can make new tunnels to different places.
22:13:37  <unixfr3ak> yes i know...no need to point out the painfully obvious
22:13:50  <welterde> dream: no.. i just uses the shared one
22:14:06  <welterde> at least.. that's how it should work ;)
22:14:34  <welterde> afk for a bit
22:14:36  <badger> well I think we've reached a good point to...
22:14:44  -*- badger winds up
22:14:54  -*- badger *baf*s the meeting closed
22:15:10  <eche|on> :-)
22:15:13  <badger> good job everyone
22:16:12  <dream> you can't make a server tunnel with the SOCKS thing? hmm...
22:16:34  <dream> I guess that would be a pretty nice thing for non HTTP protocols. :)
22:16:49  <dream> Either that or implementing CONNECT in the eeproxy.
22:16:52  <unixfr3ak> now you guys are going to dissapear again lol
22:18:38  <dream> poofda
22:19:40  <zzz> I'm still here
22:19:49  <zzz> our socks is client-only now
22:20:51  <zzz> I have CONNECT implemented, that's what I was talking about above
22:23:20  <dream> Neat I can't think of any reason why not to do that, and it'd be lots more convenient since SOCKS is so goddamn popular many apps come with it.