I2P dev meeting, May 29, 2002 @ 00:00 UTC

(Courtesy of the wayback machine http://www.archive.org/)

Quick recap

  • Present:

Aroonkoa, Aster, athena, Banks, Chocolate, codeshark, ellison, Kronos-X, MiB, mids, Mole, Neo, nop, ptsc, SkyRat, Somedude, tikk, UserX, Zwolly,

Registo Completo do IRC

--- Log opened Tue May 28 22:39:11 2002
22:39 <+logger> logging started
22:40 -!- mids changed the topic of #iip-dev to: IIP Development Channel (moderated) | Weekly development meetings happen here at 0000 UTC wed. (tue if you are in a minus tz) | (during meetings) live logfile http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/meeting2/livelog.txt
22:52 -!- mode/#iip-dev [-v logger] by mids
23:42 -!- mids changed the topic of #iip-dev to: IIP Development Channel (moderated) | Weekly development meetings happen here at 0000 UTC wed. (tue if you are in a minus tz) | http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
--- Day changed Wed May 29 2002
00:16 [Users #iip-dev]
00:16 [@mids] [ athena] [ logger] [ MiB] [ SubLiminaL] 
00:16 -!- Irssi: #iip-dev: Total of 5 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal]
00:26 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o UserX] by mids
00:29 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o codeshark] by mids
00:32 <@codeshark> mids: i have an additional topic for today
00:32 <@codeshark> we need more relays
00:33 <@mids> where do you want it?
00:34 <@codeshark> stability of networks
00:34 <@mids> done
00:56 <@UserX> mids: i'm going to have to leave about 30 minutes after the meeting starts
00:56 <@mids> ok, if you have agenda items, please msg them to me, and they will be discussed
00:56 <@mids> same if you want to shuffle the order
00:57 <@mids> though I tried to move the most important ones to the top
00:58 <@codeshark> add to agenda items: change meeting time
00:59 <@mids> to when?
00:59 <@codeshark> needs to be discussed
01:00 <@mids> ok
01:00 <@codeshark> for me it's a bit too late
01:00 <@codeshark> 2 AM ...
01:22 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o nop] by mids
01:51 -!- mode/#iip-dev [-m] by mids
01:51  * mids unmoderates till it start
01:51 <@codeshark> my notebook has power for 38 minutes
01:52  * codeshark wonders if that's enough
01:52 <@mids> brb
01:53 <@mids> re
01:54 < MiB> Side question: I noticed mids' page is .nl... how many of you are Dutch?  I'm a Belgian myself.
01:54 <@mids> we have atleast 10 dutch(wo)men here
01:54 < MiB> Wow, leuk om weten :)
01:55 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o nop] by mids
01:55 < athena> codeshark: where are you at 2am that doesn't have a power outlet?? :)
01:57 <@codeshark> i have, but i'm too lazy
01:59 -!- mids changed the topic of #iip-dev to: Meeting info, agenda, livelog including live logs in case you are late): 
01:59 -!- mids changed the topic of #iip-dev to: Meeting info, agenda, livelog (in case you are late): http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
02:00 <@nop> ok
02:00 <@nop> welcome
02:00 <@nop> to our 2nd meeting
02:00 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+m] by mids
02:00 <@nop> at IIP
02:00 <@mids> This is the first public IIP meeting, we plan to have such a meeting each week at the same time and place.
02:00 <@mids> Previous meeting ( http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/meeting1/ ) was non public, this one is.
02:00 <@mids> We will moderate the meetings to prevent chaos. After the subject is stated, the channel will be unmoderated
02:00 <@mids> so you can talk. If this becomes too chaotic, it will be kept moderated and then if you have a question or
02:00 <@mids> want to contribute something, message someone with ops (@) or voice (+)
02:00 <@mids> Meeting info, agenda, livelog (in case you are late): http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
02:00 <@mids> .
02:00 <@nop> ok
02:01 <@nop> let's get started, I've been so busy today
02:01 <@nop> multitasking
02:01 <@nop> so you'll have to excuse if I'm in and out
02:01 <@mids> np
02:01 <@nop> agenda list
02:01 <@mids> Topics:
02:01 <@mids> 1) Welcome
02:01 <@mids> 2) Stability network
02:01 <@mids> 3) Project management
02:01 <@mids> 4) Instant Anonymous Messenger
02:01 <@mids> 5) Website
02:01 <@mids> 6) Documentation
02:01 <@nop> ok
02:01 <@mids> 7) Other
02:01 <@nop> stability network
02:01 <@mids> 8) Questions?
02:01 <@mids> 9) Next meeting
02:01 <@mids> .
02:02 -!- mode/#iip-dev [-m] by mids
02:02 <@nop> as you may have noticed
02:02 <@mids> maybe initial questions?
02:02 <@nop> sure
02:02 <@mids> anybody....
02:02 < Neo> hi.
02:02 < Neo> do you know the causes of the network problems?
02:02 <@mids> Neo: that will be answered in a minute
02:02 <@nop> ok
02:02 <@mids> first we look if there are initial questions
02:02 <@nop> any initial questions
02:02 <@mids> guess not, nop go on (+m)
02:03 <@nop> ok
02:03 <@nop> network stability
02:03 <@nop> the reasons of this are many
02:03 <@nop> for one
02:03 <@nop> this network has been sitting in a laptop on a desk at my work for a long time
02:03 <@nop> problem with this is
02:03 <@nop> someone moved the laptop
02:03 <@nop> not thinking it needed to be on
02:03 <@nop> so... that was one problem
02:04 <@nop> second
02:04 <@nop> I decided to move it
02:04 <@nop> to a beefier box
02:04 <@nop> especially because of all the Diffie-Hellman calculations
02:05 <@mids> can you explain the case with the DH?
02:05 <@nop> it is now gone from a 300 mhz
02:05 <@nop> actually
02:05 <@nop> 366 mhz
02:05 <@nop> to a 933 mhz
02:05 <@nop> from 128 megs of ram to 512
02:05 <@nop> big difference
02:05 <@nop> :)
02:05 <@nop> Pent II - Pent III
02:05 <@nop> ok
02:05 <@nop> from that point 
02:05 <@nop> we found a memfree assertion error - actually athena also discovered it running rc2
02:06 <@nop> and this problem needed to be addressed
02:06 <@nop> which was
02:06 <@nop> and just recently
02:06 <@nop> upon fixing that problem
02:06 <@nop> it has been since stable
02:06 <@nop> now
02:06 <@nop> we would really love to move away from centralization and that's our main goal
02:06 <@nop> but it's a one step at a time type of deal, and this is a developer's network
02:06 <@nop> so sometimes reliability is not it's best
02:07 <@nop> but I am trying to keep everyone happy at this level
02:07 <@nop> any questions
02:07 <@nop> regarding this matter
02:07 <@mids> can you explain the case with the DH?
02:07 <@nop> Case with DH
02:07 <@nop> Diffie-Hellman key exchange calculations take a lot of processes
02:07 <@nop> so when it goes down for a sec
02:07 <@nop> and everyone tries to connect
02:07 <@nop> it spikes the cpu at 99%
02:08 <@nop> because lots of calculations are taking place
02:08 <@nop> our goal
02:08 -!- mode/#iip-dev [-s] by mids
02:08 <@nop> to fix this
02:08 <@nop> we have done a few things
02:08 <@nop> we put a poll/delay to handle calculations better
02:08 <@nop> and 2
02:08 <@nop> we are planning on implemented a better Multi-precision library in the future
02:09 <@nop> any more questions regarding this matter
02:09 <@mids> I have one thing to ad:
02:09 <@nop> ok
02:09 <@nop> please
02:09 <@mids> network graph: http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iipstats/network.html
02:09 <@mids> as you see (especially at weekly)
02:09 <@mids> after a long network downtime
02:09 <@mids> we loose a big time of users
02:09 <@mids> and it takes a long time to gain them back
02:09 <@mids> this is bad for our reputation
02:09 <@nop> and for anonymity
02:09 <@mids> maybe we should communicate better with the users
02:09 <@nop> more users the better
02:10 <@nop> agreed
02:10 <@mids> when you know that the net will go down: do a global announcement
02:10 <@nop> ok
02:10 <@nop> sometimes
02:10 <@nop> I don't know
02:10 <@mids> if you observe that it is down: update status on site
02:10 <@mids> .
02:10 <@nop> ok
02:10 <@nop> any questions or comments on this topic
02:10 < athena> if i can make a suggestion: a brief update in the ircd motd would be great also
02:10  * Neo things update status on site is really good idea
02:11 <@nop> ok athena : you are noted, and I will make my efforts in doing so
02:11 < athena> thanks'
02:11 < Neo> (sometimes I don't know if it is the network or just me)
02:11 <@nop> Neo and mids I agree on update status
02:11 <@nop> great idea
02:11 <@mids> codeshark had something on the node status
02:11 <@nop> k
02:11 <@codeshark> just thought it could be integrated in the nodechecker
02:12 <@nop> please elaborate
02:12 <@codeshark> if i see that all hosts are down (=network down), i could update the status page
02:12 <@nop> cool
02:12 <@nop> sounds great
02:13 <@nop> this also could go well with nym's who's online, instead of that, just have a network status page
02:13 <@mids> please use . when done
02:13 <@codeshark> .
02:13 <@nop> .
02:13 < Neo> .
02:13 <@mids> how many public relays do we have?
02:13 <@mids> .
02:13 <@codeshark> right now we 15 in the nodechecker list
02:13 <@codeshark> 13 are online
02:14 <@codeshark> .
02:14 <@nop> agenda
02:14 <@mids> do we need more?
02:14 <@mids> .
02:14 <@nop> we always need more
02:14 <@nop> that's a given
02:14 <@nop> :)
02:14 <@nop> .
02:14 <@codeshark> not for stability
02:14 <@codeshark> but for anonymity
02:14 <@codeshark> .
02:14 <@nop> yes 
02:14 <@nop> .
02:14 <@mids> other questions/
02:14 <@mids> .
02:14 <@nop> this . thing is funny
02:14 <@nop> .
02:14  * mids does no . after a question anymore
02:15 <@mids> okay, next
02:15 <@mids> 3) Project management
02:15 <@nop> mids - you might want to open up on that
02:15 <@mids> maybe we should try to be more professional
02:15 <@mids> while keeping it fun
02:15 <@nop> well
02:15 <@nop> maybe more organized
02:15 <@mids> publish our milestones
02:15 <@nop> professionaly is up for debate
02:16 <@mids> delegate tasks
02:16 <@nop> the challenge with professional is we can't be committed every single day to this, because of real life
02:16 <@nop> but yes
02:16 <@nop> we should definitely delegate tasks
02:16 <@nop> which
02:16 <@nop> I think we do
02:16 <@nop> but not everyone has remained in contact about their task
02:16 <@mids> maybe make delegation more open
02:16 <@mids> so everybody knows who to inform about what
02:16 <@nop> ok
02:16 <@nop> yes
02:16  * Neo has a suggestion re: project management helper that we are using in DC.
02:16 <@mids> I remember several cases of double work
02:16 <@mids> .
02:16 <@mids> yes Neo ?
02:17 < Neo> Mr Project.
02:17 <@nop> an agent?
02:17 < Neo> Here is our release schedule: http://citystateinc.com/dc/dc_project_5-28-2002.gif
02:17 < Neo> Its a task sheduler thing, take a look at the gif it explains it pretty much.
02:17 < Neo> Its just a helper tool.
02:18 <@nop> sounds good
02:18 <@nop> also
02:18 <@nop> we need a whiteboard type communication device
02:18 <@nop> something that can allow developer's to communicate visually
02:18 <@nop> especially as we dive deeper into complications of anonymous network
02:18 <@nop> s
02:18 <@codeshark> mids and I tried some whiteboard stuff
02:18 <@nop> networks
02:18 <@codeshark> but it doesn't seem to be very useful
02:18 <@codeshark> at least the tools we tried
02:18 <@codeshark> .
02:18 <@nop> hmm
02:18 <@mids> those we tried were too slow and limited
02:18 <@mids> .
02:19 <@nop> hmm
02:19 <@nop> what did you try
02:19 <@mids> some freshmeat ones
02:19 <@nop> k
02:19 <@mids> does anybody have good experience with public whiteboards?
02:19 <@nop> guess not
02:19 <@mids> hm, nope
02:19 <@mids> :)
02:19 <@nop> well
02:19 <@nop> maybe we should delegate a task
02:19 <@mids> put it on the todo
02:20 <@nop> todo/task delegateion
02:20 <@nop> who wants to assist in finding a whiteboard that would suit developer's needs
02:20 <@nop> it can always be more than one person as well
02:20 <@mids> well, if I find one, I wont keep it a secrey
02:20 <@nop> k
02:20 <@nop> well it's on the todo
02:20 <@mids> but it has to be multiplatform
02:20 <@nop> yes
02:21 <@mids> ok
02:21 < Neo> nop, what do you see people finding the whiteboard useful for? (curious of your ideas)
02:21 <@nop> well, I am visual with networks 
02:22 <@nop> and I know there have been a few times
02:22 <@nop> that visual drawings make sense
02:22 <@nop> rather than chatting on irc
02:22 < Neo> k, thanks :)
02:22 <@nop> that can be limiting and hard to get your algorithm/network design across
02:22 <@mids> especially the explination of the relays
02:22 < Neo> some screen grabs could come in handy for docs also.
02:22 <@nop> yes
02:23 <@nop> so far
02:23 <@nop> I've come to the point of drawing it out and faxing it last time
02:23 <@nop> :)
02:23 <@mids> lol
02:23 <@nop> ok - anyway
02:23 <@codeshark> nop: email :)
02:23 <@nop> noted that whiteboard would be a plus
02:23 <@nop> yeah yeah
02:23 <@mids> other point:
02:23 <@nop> email smemail
02:23 <@nop> you guys think we're like geeks or somethin
02:24 <@mids> banks suggested to follow the thought of the Cathedral Bazaar thing by Eric Raymond: release often
02:24 <@nop> I'm still learning email ;)
02:24 <@mids> I think that is under project management too
02:24 <@nop> umm, link
02:24 <@codeshark> (... release early)
02:24 <@mids> http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/
02:25 <@codeshark> i think that's what we doing. or do you want to release more often?
02:25 <@codeshark> .
02:25 <@mids> Banks?
02:25 < Banks> I'm not sure yet
02:26  * mids guesses he is just anxious to see RC2
02:26 < Banks> it helps people to see that the path to RC2 is advancing swiftly :)
02:26 <@nop> RC2 is done - it's docs that are being the hold up
02:26 <@mids> docs are point 6
02:26 <@nop> k
02:27 < Banks> Docs on RC2?
02:27 <@mids> Banks: yes
02:27 <@nop> well, docs for 1.1 official release
02:27 <@nop> but yes
02:27 <@nop> if we don't get progress done
02:27 <@nop> on docs
02:27 <@nop> then we'll be lagged period
02:27 <@nop> for release of 1.1 Release
02:27 < Banks> I've just done a ton on the docs but not for RC2. Haven't sent it yet. Don't know cvs
02:28 <@nop> hehe
02:28 <@nop> ok
02:28 <@codeshark> banks: what did you do?
02:28 < Aster> hola
02:28 <@mids> hi Aster please check the notices
02:28 < Aster> which notices?
02:28 < Aster> im soo lost
02:28 < Aster> whats going onn? aaahhhh
02:28 <@mids> [notice(Aster)] welcome, the channel is moderated if you have something to say, message me or somebody else with ops or voice
02:28 <@mids> [notice(Aster)] Information, agenda and logs: http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/
02:29 < Banks> codeshark: A handful of things. Related quotes at the beginning of each chapter, a small FAQ ...
02:29 < Banks> How to contribute
02:29 < Banks> Why Anonymity?
02:29 < ptsc> suggestion if i may be so bold:  default option, which can be disabled, of 'crippling' urls to be non-clickable, in the proxy.
02:29 <@codeshark> ok. we have to talk about that in point 6
02:29 <@mids> great
02:29 < Banks> How to configure a WinXP firewall to allow IIP
02:30 <@mids> ptsc: what do you mean?
02:30 < ptsc> perhaps by chaning http to some other string such as wysiwyg or url or something unlikely to be anonymity compromising, like the anonymity tripwire in freenet
02:30 <@mids> you mean, that if I say http://www.google.com/ that it will be censored?
02:31 < ptsc> since the easiest means of compromising anonymity is to post a honeypot url to a crowded channel
02:31 < SkyRat> no just not clickable
02:31 <@mids> anybody want to respond on that one?
02:31 < ptsc> this should be something that can be disabled.
02:31 < Banks> That would have to be done at the IRC client level wouldn't it?
02:31 < athena> or server
02:32 <@mids> it can be done on the server level
02:32 <@mids> but I think there is some responcibility for the user
02:32 < ptsc> contaminating server traffic might be bad
02:32 <@mids> should we also change telephone numbers?
02:32 < Banks> Lot of overhead though isn't it?
02:32  * Neo thinks manipulating content should not be done with the system. that is a pure client issue
02:32 < athena> think this problem can't be solved
02:33 < Banks> It's a good point though
02:33 <@mids> maybe a specialmodified security client
02:33 <@mids> see point 5!
02:33 <@mids> err 4
02:33  * Banks is trying not to jump to the docs part, "I mentioned it in the docs"
02:33 <@mids> hehe
02:33  * Neo thinks mids is correct, it has a place in a custom client maybe, or in "security" patches to existing clients
02:33 < athena> there should be discussion of this in the manual... i.e. "ways of losing your anonymity"
02:34 <@mids> I suggest going on , and see what point 4 brings us after MiBs comment
02:34 < MiB> :)
02:34 < MiB> You spoke about better communication with users a bit earlier, how do you feel about a public mailing list and/or BBS where developers and testers can conversate with each other?
02:34 <@mids> afaik we have 1 mailinglist
02:34  * athena points out #iip
02:34 <@mids> iip-dev mainly for development
02:35 < Banks> Maybe an IRC chan where people who can't connect to IIP can go?
02:35 <@mids> although also other topics
02:35 <@codeshark> we have the bug-list on sourceforge too
02:35 < ptsc> i actually have written a sort of 'guide for the clueless' 
02:35 < ptsc> including some of these
02:36 < Banks> I saw that at deja, ptsc. Nice.
02:36 < ptsc> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ss9rdugclv39cemnk4ue9t8jv6n8se8a3h%404ax.com&output=gplain
02:36 < ptsc> it is written to a specialized audience concerning an iip channel that is as yet relatively uninhabited
02:36 < ptsc> thx
02:36 < Banks> It's a good idea for a chan
02:37 < ptsc> i think it captures the "fool's mate" ways of trashing your own anonymity, but i do believe more sophisticated attacks could be made especially by an opponent who both has surveillance capability and is running a node.
02:37 <@mids> cool for an howto I would say!
02:38 <@mids> noe?j
02:38 <@mids> err
02:38 < Neo> Re: BBS - Distribued City is a ssl/web based community system located at xs4all. We welcome IIP forums in our forum section.
02:38 <@mids> neo?
02:38 < Banks> I tried to put some of it into the docs.
02:38 < ptsc> i think it's beyond a mid-level opponent such as an unaided church of scientology but assisted by hackers and/or a corrupt node, and a manipulated federal agency (FBI), i think you could possibly bust it open
02:39 < ptsc> it doesn't have the latency of the remailer network (and in fact couldn't, and still be reasonably 'instant')
02:39 < Neo> The DC system also has GPG Web private messaging. Mids and I and others have kept in contact when IIP was down, and also relevant discussion of issues related to IIP.
02:39 < Neo> We are in beta now, but opening to public soon.
02:39 < Neo> .
02:39 <@mids> So we can use DC for the non-irc part of IIP
02:39 <@mids> forums, announcements
02:39 < Neo> You bet.
02:39 < Banks> A corrupt node would have to unscramble the end-to-end encryption too, wouldn't it?
02:39 < Neo> We trashed our chat system, and are using IIP, so you guys jump right in.
02:40 <@mids> Banks: err, thats offtopic atm
02:40 < Banks> mids: You're right
02:40 <@mids> I suggest discussing the IIP internals later
02:40 < ptsc> i guess by 'corrupt' i meant the person rather than the node
02:40 <@mids> lets hurry and move on before chocolate joins
02:40 <@mids> any objections?
02:40 < ptsc> and by that, i mean just that the person is going to run netstat periodically and log who is connecting to them,
02:41 < ptsc> while also being logged in a channel as a nick, watching who shows up, and weeding people out by a process of elimination
02:41 < Neo> We can give IIP their own custom forums. - Newbies - Tech - Dev... let us know.
02:41 -!- mode/#iip-dev [+o Chocolate] by mids
02:41 < ptsc> they could also get network internals of other nodes they connect to, and then obtain subpoenas/'carnivore' capability on those nodes
02:41 <@mids> ptsc: its offtopic
02:41 <@mids> please discuss it later
02:41 <@mids> (getting chaotic)
02:41 < ptsc> apologies
02:41 <@mids> np
02:42 <@mids> 4) Instant Anonymous Messenger (wilde wont be here)
02:42 <@mids> wilde was too sleepy
02:42 <@mids> so u
02:42 <@nop> ok
02:42 <@mids> so I 'll just paste what he said:
02:42 <@nop> please do
02:42 <@mids> Status and features:
02:42 <@mids> wilde started to work on an IM, easy to use program to connect to IIP.
02:42 <@mids> He got the IRC connection working. The plugin system works too.
02:42 <@mids> Apart from IRC and IM support there will also be features for digital
02:42 <@mids> currencies. He is looking into cryptography now.
02:42 <@mids> For further information email wilde@invisiblenet.net or visit #iam-dev
02:42 <@mids> .
02:42 <@nop> ok
02:42 <@nop> also
02:42 <@nop> if freenet ever gets stable
02:42 <@nop> it would be nice to add a dcc transport
02:42 <@nop> that utilizes freenet
02:42 <@nop> as a plugin
02:43 <@mids> yup
02:43 <@nop> ok
02:43 <@nop> sounds good
02:43 <@nop> any questions
02:43 <@mids> and maybe, like ptsc suggested
02:43 < Banks> True, but won't RC2 have DCC?
02:43 <@mids> filter the IRC, to disable urls
02:43 <@nop> IIP rc2 will not have dcc
02:43 <@nop> it compromises anonymity
02:43 <@nop> file sharing will have to be later within IIP
02:44 <@nop> but it's in planning
02:44 < Banks> ok, I thought there might be a way to do it without compromise
02:44 <@nop> not till we decentralize
02:44 <@nop> then there will be
02:44 <@nop> utilizing broker agents
02:44 <@nop> etc
02:44 <@nop> we have a fileserv plugin for xchat
02:44 <@nop> that does base64
02:44 <@nop> anyway
02:44 <@nop> that's the plan
02:44 <@nop> ok
02:44 <@nop> next topic
02:45 <@mids> maybe questions
02:45 <@mids> but we dont know all answers
02:45 <@mids> cause wilde aint here
02:45 <@mids> :)
02:45 <@mids> so just ask, he can read them in the logs
02:45 < Neo> wilde coding in perl?
02:45 <@nop> java
02:45 <@mids> java
02:45 <@nop> I believe
02:46 <@mids> he bases it on a full IM client that a friend of him wrote
02:46 < Neo> ah
02:46 <@mids> okay, lets hurry to topic 5
02:46 <@mids> we have 9 in total
02:47 <@nop> topic number 5 is ...
02:47 <@nop> drum roll please
02:47 <@mids> write your burning quesitons down
02:47 <@mids> 5) Website
02:47 <@nop> ahh
02:47 <@nop> yes
02:47 <@nop> the lag
02:47 <@mids> I want to give the word to nym
02:47 <@nop> yeah
02:47 <@nop> umm
02:47 <@mids> nym?
02:47 <@mids> okay
02:47 <@nop> ok
02:47 <@nop> site looks ok
02:47 <@mids> he was here last week
02:47 <@nop> the fear I have
02:47 <@mids> and appologied for the delay
02:47 <@nop> is that it will take him forever to update any changes
02:47 <@mids> he has made a new updayed design:
02:47 <@mids> http://buttsnot.com/invisible2.html
02:48 <@nop> or press releases
02:48 <@mids> the first one was http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/meeting1/draft2.jpg
02:48 <@nop> so dunno
02:48 <@mids> any comments on the looks?
02:48 <@nop> and we need a plan b
02:48 <@nop> just in case he never shows a stable site
02:48 < tikk> nice job.. and i'm a designer
02:48 < tikk> there's a few table errors
02:48 < Neo> ellison is available for plan b
02:48 < Aster> its ok, could use some more work
02:49 < tikk> cosmetic stuff
02:49 <@nop> neo are you sure
02:49 <@nop> that would be great
02:49 <@nop> also Neo
02:49 <@nop> thnx for the IIP stuff you wrote
02:49 <@mids> I think it is not good enough for > 15 hours work
02:49 <@nop> it's impressive
02:49 < Neo> yes, he already offered
02:49 <@nop> great
02:49 < Neo> what IIP stuff?
02:49 <@nop> dc 
02:49 <@nop> on dc beta
02:50 < Neo> OH. ellison did that :)
02:50 <@nop> also
02:50 <@nop> well thank him
02:50 <@nop> also
02:50 <@nop> does ellison do logo design?
02:50 < Neo> will do, he will read this log
02:50 <@mids> FYI, ellison is the gfx guy of Distributed City
02:50 < Neo> you bet.
02:50 <@nop> kewl
02:50 < Neo> and alta/lese/liquid privacy
02:50 <@nop> is he fast working
02:50 <@nop> like we would be able to see something soon
02:50 <@nop> type of deal
02:50 <@nop> because I"m bout ready to put my foot down
02:50 <@nop> and go with plan b
02:51 < Neo> he will be on later, we can have a quick meeting then, I can't speak for him
02:51 <@mids> update on nym
02:51 <@nop> ok
02:51 <@mids> he got $100 from us to do a design
02:51 <@mids> payed out of the donations depot
02:51 < Neo> now but I know that he was very interested in doing something for IIP if the opportunity arose.
02:51 <@mids> all the donators agreed
02:51 <@mids> but, what we have now is not usable
02:51 <@mids> it is going too slow
02:51 <@nop> and we know 100$ ain't much
02:52 <@nop> but I don't feel that we even have that worth
02:52 <@mids> but well, we dont have more
02:52 <@mids> I am sure that nym means it all right
02:52 <@nop> we gave it to him like more than a month ago
02:52 <@mids> but lacks the time
02:52 <@nop> yes
02:52 <@nop> I understand
02:52 <@nop> but we have to be practical
02:52 < Aster> once he gets the design done, someone else (ide be willing to) get the rest together
02:52 <@mids> we want a website asap
02:52 <@mids> Aster: thanks
02:52 <@nop> and good logo's
02:52 <@nop> yes thanks
02:53 <@mids> so what are the options:
02:53 <@mids> - use what we have and craft it into a site
02:53 <@mids> - put another gfx guy/girl on it
02:53 <@mids> - keep the old site
02:53 <@nop> old site has to go
02:53 <@nop> I like it
02:53 <@nop> but it's too villany
02:53 <@mids> - wait for nym to finish it
02:54 <@nop> and casper == copyright infringement
02:54 < Banks> I think the old site is pretty good. Logo and Times New Roman aside.
02:54 <@nop> hehe
02:54 <@nop> you know
02:54 <@nop> you'd be surprised
02:54 <@nop> but that was done in 10 minutes
02:54 < Banks> shame that Gamespy had to steal our logo before we had a chance to create it :)
02:54 <@nop> haha
02:55 <@nop> ok
02:55 <@nop> so on topic of website
02:55 <@nop> reverting back to old one is last option at most
02:55 <@nop> I'm really wanting to go for a brighter look
02:55 <@nop> something more professional
02:55 <@nop> because
02:55 <@nop> if we get attention by press
02:55 <@nop> the darkness will give way to the "media hacker" term
02:56 < Banks> true. I think we should think about who the target market is and cater it to that.
02:56 <@nop> and IIP will not go down like that
02:56 <@nop> Banks: agreed
02:56 <@nop> the target market is how you market it though
02:56 <@nop> the way I see this
02:56 < Neo> ellison can *REALLY* help you with this.
02:56 <@nop> yes
02:56 <@nop> I see
02:56 <@mids> I have seen ellisons work
02:56 <@nop> I have as well, it's very good
02:56 <@mids> and if he wants, lets give him a try
02:56 <@nop> PR and website == one idea
02:57 < Banks> True, but there's already an audience for it. Slashdot-types.
02:57 < Aster> market to both groups: hackers and corp looking...have 2 sites
02:57 < Aroonkoa> And kuro5hin. :)
02:57 <@mids> about the $100, I see it as lost
02:57 <@nop> yes
02:57 <@mids> and we dont do such things again in the future
02:57 <@Chocolate> 2 sites is way to much overhead
02:57 <@mids> lets name it a learning phase
02:57 <@nop> yes
02:57 < Aster> chocolate: in what way?
02:57 <@nop> we want the invisibleNet front page
02:57 < Banks> The program itself is always significantly more important than the website.
02:57 <@nop> then the Invisible Irc Project page
02:58 < Banks> A good program markets itself.
02:58 <@nop> InvisibleNet is the Dev team
02:58 <@nop> all of us
02:58 <@nop> everyone using IIP
02:58 <@nop> is part of an invisibleNet
02:58 <@nop> :)
02:58 <@nop> a society so secret we don't even know ourselves
02:58 <@nop> ;)
02:58 <@nop> but seriously
02:58 <@nop> and then we need the main IIP page
02:58 <@mids> tikk offers his help too
02:58 <@mids> maybe we can make a little web-board
02:58 <@nop> tikk, much appreciated
02:58 <@mids> for input etc
02:59 < Neo> Banks: yes, but part of the marketing needs to cater to PR for political reasons ciphers only go so far
02:59 <@mids> who wants to participate in the webboard? (just an idea)
02:59  * mids  
02:59 <@nop> Neo : please elaborate on that comment
02:59 < Banks> Neo: I agree
02:59  * nop doesn't quite understand yet
03:00 <@nop> also - mids : anytime Website is topic have website/PR as one topic
03:00 <@nop> because it is one in the same
03:00 <@mids> nop: yup
03:00 <@nop> ok
03:00 <@nop> well, if ellison is willing
03:00 <@nop> and tikk you are willing to offer advice
03:00 <@nop> let's do this
03:01 < Neo> re: PR. Like your comment above about the "media hacker" term. The dark "villianry" (sp?)
03:01 <@nop> and anyone else willing to get the website to the optimal point then hop on and let's go for it
03:01 <@nop> Neo: point seen - understood
03:01 < Neo> image is not good for PR - Political PR and marketing for new users PR.
03:01 < Neo> That is why people interested in saving money from people who try and take it away from
03:01 < Aster> nop: you mean as in webmaster, or just finishing the job of the site (hop on comment)
03:02 < tikk> i'm willing to help advise, sure.. i'm not sure if i'm +v here
03:02 < Neo> them and use crypto, it is better for them to use crypto for freedom of speech uses. not to capitalize on
03:02 <@mids> tikk: we hear you
03:02 <@nop> aster that's debatable, lately, I've been the semi-webmaster
03:02 <@mids> tikk: the chan isnt +m
03:02 <@nop> aster
03:02 < Aster> yup?
03:02 <@nop> if you want to it's an open position once we get it up
03:02 < Neo> how they are protecting assets. (nuff said, this is for another room/thread)
03:02 < Aster> sure
03:03 <@nop> I have a feeling this is going to be bigger than I can handle
03:03 <@mids> ok
03:03 <@nop> Neo : good point ;)
03:03  * mids asks contact info from parties involved
03:03 <@mids> and I'll notice you
03:03 <@nop> and pubkeys
03:03 <@nop> also
03:03 <@nop> on a side note
03:03 <@nop> everyone registered with trent
03:03 <@nop> has anonymail access
03:03 <@nop> user@iipmail.net
03:04 <@nop> pgp compatible
03:04 <@nop> somewhat
03:04 <@nop> :)
03:04 <@nop> it's like memoserv here
03:04 <@nop> and is very useful
03:04 <@nop> continue
03:04 <@nop> off topic
03:04 <@mids> ok
03:04 <@nop> but needed to say
03:04 <@mids> (just ask in #iip for more info)
03:04 <@nop> yep
03:05 <@mids> I'll contact the parties who offered their interest in the web/pr
03:05 <@mids> lets move on
03:05 <@mids> ) Documentation (codeshark, cohesion or mids)
03:05 <@mids> cohesion isnt here
03:05 <@Chocolate> can I stick something in real fast?
03:05 <@nop> sure
03:05 <@mids> ok
03:05 <@Chocolate> going back to the whiteboard
03:05  * mids scrolls up
03:05 < Banks> That's what I'm always saying to my wife.
03:05 <@Chocolate> I found one called "CSV" (if I remeber rigth)
03:06 <@Chocolate> I'll find the url and send it to #iip
03:06 <@Chocolate> .
03:06 <@mids> nice
03:06 <@mids> 6) Documentation
03:06 <@mids> last week we had a lenghty talk
03:06 <@mids> 3 ppl involved with documentation
03:06 <@mids> all pretty busy
03:07 <@mids> docu is really needed before release
03:07 <@mids> there are 2 systems:
03:07 <@mids> LaTeX or Docbook
03:07 <@mids> we agreed on using LaTeX now
03:07 <@mids> and moving to docbook in a later state
03:08 <@mids> current latex is available on http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/docdemo/
03:08 < Banks> I was using HTML to PDF with HTMLDOC.
03:08 <@mids> but it needs review
03:08 <@mids> and also misses some items
03:08 <@mids> (unix install)
03:08 <@mids> probably anonymail can be added too it too as appendix
03:08 <@mids> now, we heared that a few people have made additions to the manual
03:09 <@mids> problem is that we dont know what version
03:09 <@mids> so lets coordinate that
03:09 <@mids> and put everything together
03:09 <@mids> .
03:09 <@mids> anybody something to add?
03:10 <@mids> hm
03:10 <@mids> we have 3 translations
03:10 < Banks> Is codeshark still here?
03:10 <@mids> spanish, french and dutch
03:10 <@mids> so it becomes a bit heavy
03:10 <@mids> we need documentation management.
03:11 <@mids> any news about cohesion's status?
03:11 <@mids> nop?
03:11 <@nop> here
03:11 <@nop> sorry
03:11 <@nop> umm
03:11 <@nop> he's around
03:11 <@nop> on earlier today
03:11 <@mids> but he is documentation manager not?
03:11 <@nop> umm
03:12 <@nop> yes
03:12 <@nop> hold 
03:12 <@nop> just a sec
03:12 <@nop> someone at work talking in my ear
03:12 <@mids> :)
03:12 <@mids> --- advertizement ---
03:12 < Banks> Codeshark: Are you still here? Check your pm
03:13 <@mids> Banks: if you talk to him, tell him to respond here too :)
03:13 < Banks> codeshark has been idle 27mins 38secs
03:13 < Banks> :)
03:13 <@mids> darn, out of battery power
03:13 <@Chocolate> lol
03:14 <@nop> back
03:14 <@nop> ok
03:14 <@mids> ellison: we are now at the part 6) Documentation
03:14 <@nop> cohesion is document manager
03:14 <@mids> ok
03:14 <@nop> and main technical writer
03:14 <@mids> but he seems to be busy
03:14 <@nop> but people have real life
03:14 < ellison> thanks, catching up in the logs
03:14 <@nop> and I think that is what is going on
03:14 <@nop> so...
03:14 <@mids> true
03:14 <@nop> we should have a assistant doc manager
03:14 <@mids> suggestion: put as much as possible in CVS, so more can work on it
03:14 <@nop> so that this can continue
03:15 <@nop> mids = you seem like you have a lot on plate
03:15 <@nop> do you
03:15 <@nop> or does it seem that way
03:15 <@nop> with IIP that is
03:15 < Banks> I can help but I'm not familiar with CVS
03:15 <@nop> hold
03:15 <@mids> nop: yup
03:15 <@nop> banks
03:15 <@mids> need to delegate
03:15 <@nop> I'll get you doc on cvs
03:15 <@nop> well chocolate - how are you lately ol' buddy ol pal
03:16 <@nop> ok
03:16 <@mids> I can do the assistent doc management
03:16 < Banks> Does anyone want a copy of a PDF I churned out? Codeshark is busy right now.
03:16 <@mids> but I am not going to write
03:16 <@mids> I can put input into LaTex
03:16 <@mids> and keep it central
03:17 <@mids> it wont be much time for me
03:17 <@mids> Banks: url
03:17 <@nop> sure Banks
03:17 < Banks> Where do you want me to email it?
03:17 <@nop> mids = if you waill approve and put in cvs as a contrib
03:17 <@nop> waill =will
03:17 <@nop> aster
03:17 <@mids> nop: what? my latex of Banks pdf?
03:17 <@nop> I believe so
03:18 <@nop> also
03:18 < Aster> nop: hum?
03:18 <@nop> ellison wrote a good end users doc on dc beta
03:18 <@nop> much appreciated
03:18 <@nop> and could be very usable in future
03:18 <@nop> for general IIP
03:18 <@nop> on website
03:18 <@nop> here
03:18 <@nop> a getting started
03:18 <@nop> type thing
03:18 < Banks> mids: Do you want me to email it to mids@invisiblenet.net?
03:18 <@mids> Banks: please
03:19 < Banks> ok
03:19 <@nop> aster - mind if I delegate you a webmaster once site goes up
03:19 < Aster> nop: dont mind at all :)
03:19 < Banks> mids: Sent.
03:19 < ellison> nop: i can clean it up and re-purpose it for the site
03:19 <@nop> great
03:20 <@nop> ellison - at a later point in time
03:20 <@nop> we would like to discuss web dev with you
03:20 < ellison> ok
03:20 < Banks> mids: Tell me what you think.
03:20 <@mids> Banks: will do once I got it
03:21 <@nop> docs - anymore comments on docs
03:21 <@nop> or questions
03:21 < Banks> mids: Ok, I can send the HTML with BMPs later too.
03:21 < Banks> I've got a question.
03:21 <@mids> Banks: I'll contact you and put it central
03:21 <@nop> yes sir
03:21 < Banks> The whitepaper says "here is a "steady" streaming protocol, for those who can afford the bandwidth, for constant traffic, (which protects you from traffic analysis of any form, but will cause a 500 millisecond lag)."
03:22 < Banks> And then "[name of this parameter?]"
03:22 < Banks> What is the name of the parameter? :)
03:22 <@mids> euh
03:22 <@mids> too detailed
03:22 <@mids> this is a public meeting :)
03:22 <@Chocolate> isnt that offtopic?
03:22 < Banks> My bad.
03:22 <@mids> I got the contact info from those with documentation
03:23 <@mids> I will gather it
03:23 <@mids> and put it central
03:23 <@mids> then find editors to edit
03:23 <@mids> dont fear LaTeX or CVS
03:23 <@mids> you'll live
03:23 <@mids> :)
03:23 <@mids> .
03:23 < Banks> Reading up on LaTeX was a nightmare :)
03:23 <@Chocolate> ok so is Documentation finished?
03:24 <@mids> Chocolate: lol
03:24 <@mids> Chocolate: well, the subject here is
03:24 <@mids> I think.
03:24  * Chocolate kicks mids
03:24 <@Chocolate> thats what I ment
03:24 <@mids> oh :)
03:24 <@mids> before we go to a free-for-all question round
03:24 <@Chocolate> I ment "is agenda item 6 finished"
03:25 <@mids> lets do 1 more public thing
03:25 <@mids> about the meeting time
03:25 <@mids> Quick jump to topic 9 Next meeting:
03:25 -!- Chocolate changed the topic of #iip-dev to: Meeting info, agenda, livelog (in case you are late): http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/ | current topic: meeting time
03:25 <@mids> statement: current time too late for Europeans, better time?
03:25 <@mids> codeshark and me would prefer 2 hours earlier
03:26 <@mids> (its 3:30 am here now)
03:26 < Aster> ouch
03:26 <@mids> Kronos-X: we are now almost finished
03:27 <@mids> Kronos-X: trying to settle a better meeting time
03:27 < Kronos-X> I'm unpredictable, so I'm flexible by default.
03:27 < Kronos-X> :)
03:27 < MiB> 3:38 over here, 3 to 4 hours earlier would be much more humane for me :)
03:27 <@mids> nop: what about 2 hours earlier? choc? banks? neo?
03:28 <@Chocolate> IIRC 0000 is the earlyst nop can make it
03:28 < Neo> anytime is cool with me, its the others to ask. :)
03:28 <@Chocolate> 2200 tuesday should be ok for me
03:29 < Banks> Fine by me
03:29 <@Chocolate> it's important that nop and/or userx can make the meetings though
03:29 < Aster> uh, whats thaht eastern?
03:29 <@Chocolate> no, UTC
03:29 < Aster> what would be eastern then? ( i dont know how this time stuff works :)
03:29 <@mids>  http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
03:29 <@Chocolate> EDT is -5
03:29 < Aster> k
03:29 < ellison> oooh, an ISO compliant meeting!
03:29 < Kronos-X> Heh
03:30 <@mids> nop seems to be busy
03:30 <@mids> he has a veto on the time imho
03:30 <@Chocolate> same
03:30 <@mids> those who showed up didnt complain
03:30 <@mids> so proposal is 2 hours earlier
03:30 <@mids> end of meeting time?
03:30 <@mids> .
03:31 <@mids> topic 7/8 Free 4 all Question round!!!
03:31 <@mids> sorry for cutting you all off earlier
03:31 <@mids> take revenge now
03:31 <@Chocolate> lol
03:31 <@nop> sorry
03:31 <@nop> back
03:31 <@mids> nop: 2 hours earlier meeting okay?
03:31 <@nop> ooh
03:31 <@nop> well, I'm in prime of working time
03:31 <@mids> be honest
03:32 <@nop> hmm
03:32 <@nop> can we shoot for an hour earlier
03:33 <@nop> I can get in trouble for chatting at work at that time in the day
03:33 <@mids> yup
03:33 <@mids> then we will try that
03:34 <@nop> ok
03:34 <@mids> okay... questions!
03:34 -!- mids changed the topic of #iip-dev to: Meeting info, agenda, livelog (in case you are late): http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/ | current topic: Questions
03:34 < Kronos-X> mids: Where are the .debs?
03:34 < Kronos-X> ;)
03:34 <@nop> teach us old wise one
03:34 <@nop> and we will make .debs
03:34 <@nop> :)
03:34 <@mids> Kronos-X: you would make them!
03:34 < Kronos-X> Heh.
03:35 < Kronos-X> Sorry, I'm just here to bump the noise-to-signal ratio.,
03:35 < Kronos-X> Let me pass the mic on to someone with a real question.
03:35 <@nop> hehe
03:35 <@mids> ptsc: any Q about the protocol?
03:35 < Banks> ptsc has been idle 53mins 56secs :)
03:36 <@mids> okay, banks' PDF is online on http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/meeting2/
03:36 <@nop> did we discuss roadmaps
03:36 <@nop> etdd
03:36 <@mids> it looks cool already
03:36 <@nop> etc
03:37 <@mids> nop: only that rc2 depends heavily on docs
03:38 <@nop> ok
03:39 <@nop> this pdf kicks ass
03:39 <@nop> just need the invisible irc logo in there
03:40 <@nop> and you're done eh:)
03:40 <@mids> I love the quotes and the screenshots
03:40 < Banks> Casper?
03:40 <@mids> even a FAQ!
03:40 <@mids> Banks: why didn't you tell us before?
03:40 < Banks> I spoke to codeshark but he didn't really say anything.
03:42 <@nop> no
03:42 <@nop> take the one off the site
03:42 <@nop> for now
03:42 < Banks> ok
03:43 <@mids> I am going to sleep
03:43 <@mids> logger will keep running for a while
03:43 <@mids> thanks everybody for listening
03:43 < Neo> l8r mids
03:43 <@mids> night
03:44 <@Chocolate> night
03:44 < Banks> night mids
03:44 < Kronos-X> Night, mids.
03:44 < Aster> nite
03:45 < ellison> l8r mids
03:46 < Banks> Is there a logo in the works?
03:48 <@nop> umm yeah
03:48 <@nop> also
03:48 <@nop> we want to have
03:48 <@nop> pwered by InvisibleNet
03:48 <@nop> and IIP now logo's
03:49 < Banks> That's a good idea.
03:49 <@nop> banks
03:49 < Banks> It's hard to think of a logo that conveys IRC invisibility :)
03:49 <@nop> excellent pdf
03:49 < Aster> how long till these logos exist
03:49 <@nop> we will definitely use it for distro with IIP
03:49 < Banks> Cheers
03:49 <@nop> well
03:49 <@nop> I have some drafts of powered by invisiblenet
03:49 <@nop> but you know
03:49 <@nop> the goal of IRC is one thing
03:49 <@nop> but in the future
03:49 <@nop> Invisible Internet
03:49 <@nop> so...
03:50 < Banks> True
03:50 <@nop> IRC Is main project
03:50 <@nop> but it's so modular
03:50 <@nop> that rumors might start
03:50 < Banks> Logos with heads or faces seem to do pretty well. Redhat, Napster, etc.
03:50 < Banks> Rumors?
03:51 < Aster> banks: but do we want to copy the other guys, or come up with something unique, while still remeberable
03:51 <@nop> it's a joke, basically it will be so modular anything can be put in as a protocol to anonymize
03:51 < Banks> nop: I see :)
03:52 < Banks> Aster: A head or face can still be unique. I think they're better than geometric patterns, etc.
03:52 < Aster> yeah
03:53 <@Chocolate> anyone with a camelion as a maskot?
03:54 <@nop> geiko
03:54 <@nop> insurance
03:54 <@nop> :)
03:54 <@Chocolate> damn
03:54 <@Chocolate> the fuckers
03:54 <@Chocolate> they're a terible companie
03:55 < Banks> GameSpy has taken the Invisible Man thing
03:55 <@nop> yes
03:55 <@nop> they don't even do good at getting cheap insurance
03:55 <@Chocolate> maby a klingon bird of prey?
03:55 < Banks> :)
03:55 <@Chocolate> cloaked you know ;)
03:56 < Banks> Maybe footprints that disappear across the text.
03:57 <@nop> hehe
03:57 <@nop> ok, meeting is officially over
03:57 <@nop> just to let you know
03:58 <@nop> it's free for all
03:58 <@nop> anyone have a good slogan for IIP
03:58 <@mids> IIP - it keeps you awake
03:58 <@nop> hehe
03:58 < Neo> IIP - "Fuck the State"
03:59 <@nop> umm
03:59 < Neo> oh... sorry...
03:59 <@nop> no
03:59 < Neo> :) lol
03:59 < Banks> I love that one Neo :)
03:59 < Banks> IIP - "Stuttering Urinators."
03:59 <@nop> hah
03:59 <@nop> haha
04:00 <@Chocolate> IIP - where animals talk
04:00 < Banks> Heh heh
04:01 < Banks> Maybe a Dog logo, you know, on the internet no one knows that you're a dog.
04:01 < Banks> An invisible dog! :)
04:01 < ellison> "and doubly-so with IIP"
04:02 < Banks> IIP - "Where AOLers can be free from prejudice"
04:03 <@nop> haha
04:05 <@Chocolate> IIP - Talk to yourself without people laughing at you
04:05 < Banks> Heh heh
04:10 -!- CwZ|away is now known as Somedude
04:11 <@Chocolate> hey Somedude
04:11 < Somedude> hey Chocolate
04:11 < Somedude> how goes?
04:11 <@Chocolate> I'm ok, you?
04:11 < Somedude> fine fine
04:12 < Banks> Heh heh
04:13  * Banks pm's Somedude, "We all hate Chocolate".
04:13 < Somedude> yea I do too
04:13 <@nop> hey guyes
04:14 <@nop> email me sites you like
04:14 <@nop> for examples of styles for IIP
04:14 < Banks> Hmmm.
04:14 <@nop> 0x90@invisiblenet.net
04:17 < Mole> Ok, heres the deal: I am a p2p researcher and has al ot of nice algorithms that I have invented and tested for distributed systems.
04:17 < Mole> I am currently looking for some project with which I should share my knowledge.
04:18 < Banks> You've come to the right place :)
04:18 < Banks> nop is your man.
04:18 < Mole> I just found iip some minutes ago.
04:18 < Mole> I guy in #freenet on openprojects.net recommend you.
04:18 < Mole> Well, heres what i got so far:
04:19 <@nop> k
04:19 < Mole> * All my algorithms are completely distributed and is not dependant on any central server.
04:20 < Mole> * An algorithm to keep together a network with anything from 2 to 20000000000 nodes. :))
04:20 < Mole> * That network never gets netsplits and cant be crashed as far as I know. 
04:20 <@nop> mole
04:20 <@nop> please email iip@invisiblenet.net
04:20 <@nop> with it
04:20 <@nop> along with your pubkey
04:21 < Mole> * Algorithm to announce subnets/services on the main network. (Aad subnets on the subnets.)
04:21 <@nop> can it remain anonymous
04:21 <@nop> and help not give too much info
04:21 < Mole> * Algorithms to collect statistics like number of nodes, average and median values et.c.
04:22 < Mole> * Algorithms to keep secret hwhat different nodes does on the network and what services they are suppliyng.
04:22 <@nop> why Mole for a nick
04:22 < Mole> And I am curently I am working to solve the distributed secure efficient database. :)
04:22 <@nop> kewl
04:22 < Mole> Well, Mole has been my Internet nick since 1991.
04:23 < Mole> I myself is not a very secret person. :)
04:23 < ellison> Mole: you familiar with quorum based distributed data systems?
04:23 < Mole> But I like to supply secresy to people. :)
04:23 <@nop> had a feeling those algo's are secret
04:23 <@nop> :)
04:23 < Mole> nope, not quorum.
04:23 <@nop> quorum or quantum
04:23 < ellison> lotsa cool work being done there
04:24 < ellison> quorum
04:24 < Mole> Kind of been into my research and simulations to much so I am currently taking a long break to check what other projects there are out there.
04:24 < ellison> it's basically a distributed databases structure where many entities can have read/write access, but the system is protected from attempts at corruption by any of those entities
04:24 < ellison> really useful for certain types of data structures/purposes
04:25 < ellison> http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/malkhi97byzantine.html
04:25 <@Chocolate> Mole: I recomened you here :)
04:25 <@Chocolate> got a spybot going in #freenet here
04:26 < Mole> Ok, Ill check quorum out to.
04:26 < Mole> Well, now I have lots of questions about IIP to see what good my algorithms and knowledge might do for you. :)
04:27 < Mole> First of all, is there any documentation of how IIP works anywhere?
04:28 <@nop> yes
04:28 <@nop> banks
04:28 <@nop> where's that link
04:28 < Banks> Wait one
04:28 < Banks> http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip/meeting2/iipdoc.pdf
04:29 < Banks> Mole: You'll probably want to read mainly chapter 1 and chapter 9.
04:29 < Mole> Ok, downloading it.
04:32 <@nop> I have to run
04:32 <@nop> see ya guys later
04:33 < Banks> Seeya nop
04:33 < Mole> Hey you gues are really friendly. Lots of chats in all windows and private cahts too.
04:33 < Banks> :)
04:36 < Mole> I'll read all the stuff you all recommended and talk to you some other day when I know more. :)
04:37 < Banks> That'd be great :)
06:07 < Mole> Ahh, I just browsed through iipdoc.pdf and now I think I understand how IIP works.
06:08 < Mole> If I got it right there are allmost normal IRC-servers in the "backbone" ?
06:12 < Mole> And you are planning on making verions 2.0 fully decentralised.
06:12 < Mole> Have any design work or algorithm research been done on the decentrailsed structure for verison 2.0 ?
06:20 <@Chocolate> some
06:20 <@Chocolate> still r&d
06:21 < Mole> Ok, I think I can be of use to you then. :)
06:36 < Aster> k
06:37 < Mole> Ok, well here are my thoughts on anonymous DCC chat and file send:
06:38 < Mole> Add a socks-proxy to the "IIP-client".
06:38 < Mole> Tell the users to configure their IRC client to run through the IIP-socks-proxy.
06:39 < Mole> That means all the DCC connections will go to the IIP-socks-proxy.
06:40 < Mole> The when the IRC-client (like mIRC) wants to connect to mole.anon.iip the proxy sends that connection through some of the other
06:40 < Mole> nodes in the network until it finally reaches the node you want to DCC.
06:41 < Mole> Thus you got an anonoymous DCC!
06:41 < Mole> Waht do you think?
06:41 < Aster> dcc involves files right (im not a big irc kid)
06:42 < Mole> Yep.
06:43 < Mole> So it will create much network load for the nodes that the connection "bounces" through.
06:43 < Aster> yeah...the only problem i see is that now, when you start sending your file, its gotta go through all the other servers, causing lots of traffic
06:43 < Aster> yeah
06:44 < Mole> But since allmost all nodes should be assisting the distributed net that network load could be spread pretty equally.
06:44 < Mole> But it will of course be slower "downloads" than over unsafe DCC.
06:45 < Mole> Ahh, network split?
06:46 < Aster> sorry, i missed your last few messages 
06:46 < Mole> Repating: But since allmost all nodes should be assisting the distributed net that network load could be spread pretty equally.
06:46 < Mole> Repeating: But it will of course be slower "downloads" than over unsafe DCC.
06:46 < Aster> yeah
06:47 < Mole> So it has to be discussed if it should be implented.
06:47 < Aster> not really though about the spread out network load...each node still has to relay, lets say, 10mB no matter how many other nodes are there
06:47 < Mole> But atleast it is very simple to implement if you decide to use it.
06:47 < Aster> yeah
06:48 < Mole> Not with my algorithms. :) Then each node only has to relay about 500 byte / second.
06:48 < Mole> Excpet for the DCC data ofcourse....
06:49 < Mole> Lets go to my next simple algorithm:
06:49 < Mole> To create network efficient channel communications you do like this:
06:50 < Mole> Provided that each user has his own local IIP-node:
06:51 < Mole> That is, all the data we are creating while chatting only travles among the nodes taking part in the chat.
06:51 < Mole> Thus not loading the rest of the network.
06:51 < Mole> We have to ad one thing though for anonymity:
06:51 < Mole> The nodes actually taking part in the mini network for the channel
06:52 < Mole> is only front ends for the real chatters.
06:52 < Mole> That is each node connects to a front end (perhaps in two or more levels) and it is the front end that joins the channel-network.
06:53 < Mole> That save a lot of communication bandwidth!
06:53 < Mole> and also makes the network much more robust.
06:53 < Aster> hum
06:54 < Aster> interesting
06:55 < Aster> brb....i need to lay down for a bit..back hurting
06:55 < Mole> chatter node <-> intermediate <-> frontend <- channelnet -
06:55 < Mole> > frontend <-> intermediate <-> chatter node
06:56 < Mole> Any other of you guys have any comments?
07:18 -!- Zwollywood is now known as Zwolly
07:21 < Mole> Hi Zwolly
07:22 < Zwolly> hello
07:22 < Zwolly> one moment
07:23 < Mole> Are you working with IIP-development?
07:24 < Zwolly> no i am just an user
07:24 < Zwolly> i think i am to late for the meetibg
07:25 < Mole> Ahh, me to.
07:25 < Mole> Yep, the meeting was hours ago.
07:25 < Mole> I am thinking on joining the development team.
07:25 < Zwolly> http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/iip     there is some info there
07:25 < Zwolly> great 
07:25 < Zwolly> if you got the skills and they can use some one
07:26 < Mole> Yep, I got the skills. Researched decentralised p2p systmes since 1997...
07:27 < Mole> Thanks for the reminder of the URL.
07:28 < Mole> I checked it again and there were more stuff there then I noticed when I took a first look some hours ago.
07:28 < Zwolly> only thing i know of making programs is how to make them crash hehe
07:28 < Mole> Well, sounds like you could bee a good beta-tester  then?
07:29 < Zwolly> yeh maybe
07:29 < Zwolly> i am busy on an dutch translation of the manual so maybe i can help a little with that
07:29 < Mole> I find it funny that they have a command to add your website to your ncik.
07:30 < Mole> Just read about the extra commands IIP has.
07:30 < Zwolly> yeh that is a nice option
07:32 < Mole> Oops, I looked in the "livelog.txt" on the site IIP site.
07:34 < Mole> Whoops, got disconnected.
07:35 < Zwolly> yeh i see
07:35 < Zwolly> also an point on agenda 
07:35 < Zwolly> more stable connections
07:36 < Mole> hehe, yep.
07:37 < Mole> It is possble to build networks that use multiple tcp-connections to make things very robust.
07:38 < Zwolly> yeh i am reading about that but need to see it first before i believe it
07:38 < nop> dang
07:38 < nop> meeting still going?
07:38 < Zwolly> now reading log file
07:38 < Zwolly> no
07:39 < Zwolly> just some people talking and reading what they have missed
07:39  * mids kicks everybody out
07:40 <@mids> MEETING IS OVER
--- Log closed Wed May 29 07:40:24 2002