I2P dev meeting, DATE

Quick recap

  • Present:

Addic, al-jebr, Ambience, ChZEROHag, Delly, Ehud, hezekiah, hifi, jrand0m, LeerokLacerta, lonelynerd, luckypunk, mids, Neo, nop, qriff, Rain, sahara, thecrypto, thetower, UserX, wilde,

Full IRC Log

-->	You are now talking on #iip-dev
---	Topic for #iip-dev is IIP Meeting - logfiles:
	  http://wiki.invisiblenet.net/?Meetings - http://www.invisiblenet.net/research/
<al-jebr>	it's 21:13
<--	wilde has quit (Ping timeout)
---	Trent@anon.iip gives channel operator status to UserX
<nop>	ok
<qriff> !time
<Ambience>	al-jebr: 00:21 here
<nop>	I believe everyone has settled
<hezekiah>	Let's go. :)
<jrand0m>	11:06 here
<nop>	let's start
<nop>	anyone get my agenda
<nop>	so they can play it back
<nop>	I forgot the order
<--	leenookx has quit (Ping timeout)
<Ambience>	my clock is 15 minutes ahead :)
-->	hifi (~MetroPipe@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
<hezekiah>	<nop> on the agenda
<hezekiah>	<nop> 1) Welcome
<hezekiah>	<nop> 2)Our Goodbyes
<hezekiah>	<nop> 3)IIP development now
<hezekiah>	<nop> 4) IIP development restructuring proposal
<qriff> actually its xx:13 everywhere...
<hezekiah>	<nop> 5) Recruiting for services to aid with IIP
<hezekiah>	<-- Delly has quit (Ping timeout)
<hezekiah>	<nop> 6) comments suggestions and people who want to help
<mids>	23:05:28 <@nop> 1) Welcome
<mids>	23:05:38 <@nop> 2)Our Goodbyes
<mids>	23:05:43 <@nop> 3)IIP development now
<mids>	23:05:56 <@nop> 4) IIP development restructuring proposal
<mids>	23:06:16 <@nop> 5) Recruiting for services to aid with IIP
<mids>	23:06:53 <@nop> 6) comments suggestions and people who want to help
<nop>	wow, flood in here ;)
<nop>	pl
<LeerokLacerta> Out goodbyes?
<hezekiah>	lol
<hifi>	TROLLS !!!
<nop>	Ok, welcome all
<nop>	let's settle down now :)
<hifi>	.
<Ambience>	settled
-->	wilde (~anon@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
<hifi>	settled
<al-jebr>	anyone logging?
-->	thecrypto (~thecrypto@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
<hezekiah>	I am (sort of).
<luckypunk>	mids should be.
*	jrand0m logs at all times
<al-jebr>	let's go!
<nop>	ok
<hezekiah>	nop: Agenda item number 2?
<nop>	Our goodbyes
<LeerokLacerta> Bye!
<thecrypto>	where is the livelog?
<nop>	Ok, mids has come to a point where he is moving to other projects
-->	Phiberoptika (~none@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
<mids>	After having worked for IIP for more than I year now, I have decided to
	  resign as IIP developer.
<LeerokLacerta> Awww.
<mids>	It has been fun and an educative experience
<mids>	but it is time to move on, refresh the spirit and shuffle the cards.
<Rain>	Will you still be online/around?
<mids>	I'll keep running Trent as long as needed and possible.
<mids>	Yes, I do plan to stay around as user
-->	ntk (~blob@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
*	nop is in the corner sobbing
<nop>	oh, ah hem
<jrand0m>	many thanks mids, iip w/out trent would be a pita
<LeerokLacerta> It's so sad.
<nop>	yes
<nop>	thank you mids for all your workup
<nop>	work
<mids>	Although I'll be off on vacation soon :)
<mids>	.
---	mids removes channel operator status from mids
<luckypunk>	:D
<luckypunk>	Seem's like you've done a great job.  :)
<Rain>	..how symbolic..
<nop>	we love you mids!!!
<nop>	you hear that
<nop>	that was my window opening
<thecrypto>	we all do!
<nop>	fan base out there
-->	w (~w@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
---	nop is now known as we
<luckypunk>	lol, yep.
<luckypunk>	:D
*	we love you mids
<Rain>	Go mids go!
<jrand0m>	rofl
-->	leenookx (~leenookx@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
---	LeerokLacerta has changed the topic to: IIP Meeting - logfiles:
	  http://wiki.invisiblenet.net/?Meetings - http://www.invisiblenet.net/research/
	  | We love you mids!
<Rain>	weeeeee are the chaaaampins, my frieeeennnndd...
<Neo>	yes mids, thanks for all your input, collaboration and hard work in code
	  and doing general developer things for IIP.
---	we is now known as nop
*	mids bows
*	Ehud stands up and gives a standing ovation to the commitment, perseverence,
	  effort, and good hard code that mids has given the project.
<hifi>	yeah mids take your toys and go to tigertown lol
<nop>	and don't forget the PR and web management
<nop>	he's been a vital aspect to IIP
<nop>	getting it this far would have been hard without his work
-->	ChZEROHag (hag@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
<hifi>	hifi bitches with mids over trolling issue
<--	hezekiah has quit (Ping timeout)
<mids>	heh hifi
-->	hezekiah (~hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
---	Trent@anon.iip gives channel operator status to hezekiah
<hezekiah>	Back. :)
<luckypunk>	Yay.
<hezekiah>	(And in case anyone doubted, Hezekiah == Ehud.)
<hifi>	i never used frucking trent and don't know what mids did . i only troll .
<nop>	obviously your hezekiah@anon.iip gave it away
<--	Ehud has quit (Ping timeout)
<hezekiah>	Ugh
<hezekiah>	Item number 3?
<hezekiah>	(If we're all done sobbing yet ...)
<hifi>	and i never was pingouted in my life . I am the most disciplined user of
	  IIP .
<mids>	3)IIP development now
<luckypunk>	heh
<luckypunk>	Ok everyone!  Shhh.  Back on track!
<hifi>	BUT I CRY that MIDS GO !!!
<hifi>	ok
<hifi>	.
<luckypunk>	IIP development.  Whats the current status of that code snapshot
<luckypunk>	That was supposed to happen today?
<hezekiah>	Well, unless UserX has an objection to the tarball I made,
	  it's done.
<luckypunk>	Ok.  Post it on the wiki?
<hezekiah>	UserX? Were there any problems with the tarball?
<UserX> no problems with the tarball
<luckypunk>	Yes, but are there any windows compilations?
<hezekiah>	OK1
<hezekiah>	http://invisiblenet.net/hezekiah
<hezekiah>	Get your tarballs there!
<UserX> there hasn't been a windows compilation on the windows version yet
<luckypunk>	hm
<LeerokLacerta> "tarballs" sound like some sort of food...
*	luckypunk will try and make one.
---	hezekiah has changed the topic to: IIP Meeting - logfiles:
	  http://wiki.invisiblenet.net/?Meetings - http://www.invisiblenet.net/research/
- tarballs of the 'unstable' development release are at
	  http://invisiblenet.net/hezekiah | We love you mids!
<luckypunk>	They are.  For GCC.
<luckypunk>	lol
<Rain>	Sticky food.
<hezekiah>	There is one 'documented bug'.
<nop>	I can compile a win32 version if you'd like
<Rain>	So, could you give a quick describtion of what is new in this release?
<hezekiah>	If you run isproxy, and it fails to bind the port, then it will
	  /not/ abort. It will just sit there wasting memory.
<hezekiah>	Rain: That's too much for me to handle (not to mention I don't
	  even _know_ all the differences).
<Ambience>	this one I assume: iip-1.2-dev1.tar.bz2    01-Jul-2003 01:45
	  292k  tar archive ?
<hezekiah>	UserX could give a much better description
<hezekiah>	UserX?
<nop>	hezekiah/UserX can we get a changelog of the differences by chance
<nop>	that may be a day before that gets done
<hezekiah>	Ambience: Yup! Or the Gziped one. There the same tarball.
<nop>	because there are a log of changes
<Rain>	Oh, and has the expired IIP signing-key been replaced?
<Ambience>	hezekiah: ok
<hezekiah>	nop: I joined IIP after the development branch was already in
-->	Ehud (~hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
<hezekiah>	Rain: No. I had to use my GPG key.
<nop>	no one has tested the compile of this dev branch in win32 have they?
<luckypunk>	Hey, is this src is CVS?
<hezekiah>	Rain: I couldn't contact anyone who had the IIP release key.
<hezekiah>	luckypunk: Yes.
*	luckypunk has, but his system didn't work for it.
<Rain>	hezekiah: Ok, roger.
<UserX> changes: multi-threading,  bignum support via openSSL or GMP, numerous
	  inmprovements to the memory management system
<hezekiah>	luckypunk: Right now that tarball is a copy of what you get when
	  you check out the hezekiah-dev branch from CVS and run 'make dist-bzip2'.
<luckypunk>	Gah!  I hate windows.
<Rain>	UserX: niceties ;)
<hezekiah>	And of course there are other internal changes that only the
	  developers see. :)
<qriff> just as a question for the qurious... what defines the holder for "Trent"...
<hezekiah>	One simple thing is that now that BigNum is implemented using
	  either GMP or SSL, login is a LOT faster.
<Rain>	May i mention a IIP quirk i noticed earlier today?
*	luckypunk guesses its a yes.
<hifi>	at wiki search button is absent . only window to type in but nowhere to
	  click lol .
<luckypunk>	hit enter.
<qriff> and what about channel/nick expiration...
---	Ehud is now known as logger
<qriff> registration that is...
<Rain>	Ok, it seems to me like you cannot start isproxy from a /path/to/isproxy
	  command, but intead have to do a cd /path/to and then do a ./isproxy
<hezekiah>	Rain: Let me guess ... you get a configuration screen or a request
	  for entropy, right?
*	jrand0m has a feeling this will be a very.long.meeting
<Rain>	Is that intentional, or just some quirk of my local system?
<Rain>	hezekiah: yes.
<hezekiah>	Rain: You need to make a .iip subdirectory in your home directory.
<Rain>	It claims that the conf-file is not found.
<Rain>	with my .conf file?
<hezekiah>	Rain: If no such directory exists, isproxy will always look for
	  the config files in the current directory
-->	AmishOne (amishone@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
<Rain>	Ahh. Of course.
<hezekiah>	OK ...
<hezekiah>	nop? Was there anything else for item 3?
<nop>	have we tested it for win32
<nop>	compile wise
<hezekiah>	I haven't.
<nop>	UserX: ?
<UserX> no
<nop>	I will test it this week then
<hezekiah>	luckypunk, tried doing hezekiah-dev recently and complained for
	  compile errors.
<nop>	that's key to maintain portability
<hezekiah>	I suspect there might be problems.
*	luckypunk tried, it balked.
<hezekiah>	Yup. There are problems.
<Ambience>	I'll have to leave for the more dominant one is ordering me to
	  and I have no choice here. So I'll be off to bed, but will be logging #iip-dev
	  for future reference.
<Ambience>	see ya guys!
<lonelynerd>	later
<qriff> bye
<hezekiah>	Bye, Ambience. :)
<luckypunk>	i'll be back.
<Ambience>	<--gone (log on)
<nop>	ok
<nop>	this topic is done
<nop>	next on agenda
<nop>	what's 4?
<hezekiah>	4) IIP development restructuring proposal
<nop>	ok
<nop>	we had a meeting about a discussion and proposal brought to us by jrand0m
	  for the future development
<nop>	and as well
<nop>	I have had a lot of privmessages directed at me
<nop>	for requests to focus on an arbitrary framework, instead of IRC specific
<nop>	aka a framework that supports IRC + a whole lot more
<nop>	so the want is obviously there
<nop>	and the developers definitely want to go there as well
<hezekiah>	Amen!
<nop>	the question of how to go about doing it
<nop>	and how to make the most productive use of our developers
<nop>	is up in the air
<mids>	is his framework site available to everybody?
<nop>	this isn't specifically about language
<ChZEROHag>	create a communications protocol
<nop>	ok, please let me finish
<ChZEROHag>	I've started on that somewhere...
<nop>	then we can comment
<ChZEROHag>	My apologies
<ChZEROHag>	I'm a bit in and out at the moment
<nop>	ok,
<nop>	no prob
<nop>	We are at a stage where there is discussion of an arbitrary communications
<nop>	specifically for anonymous and secure communication
<nop>	at this point jrand0m, any chance we can post the logs of #iip-future
<jrand0m>	sure
<jrand0m>	perhaps those zips I sent you so people don't have to struggle
	  through freenet for the other pages too
<nop>	ok
<nop>	hold
<nop>	please
<jrand0m>	(btw, the logs were unedited, so expect the usual occational banter)
<hezekiah>	lol. Yup! You'll get to see exactly how much I DON'T know about
	  p2p networks! lol
<jrand0m>	heh
<hezekiah>	(And they'll probably have my conspiracy theories about nop
	  too! So be sure to read the logs! ;-) )
<--	logger has quit (Ping timeout)
<hezekiah>	Ugh
<nop>	ok
<Neo>	the logs will be a lot to read. can someone summarizze for the meeting
	  what was covered and some key points of all this?
<nop>	http://office.invisiblenet.net/iip_future.zip
<nop>	and
<hezekiah>	At this point, the 'stable' release is being more unstable than
	  the 'unstable' one!! Urg.
<nop>	http://office.invisiblenet.net/meetingPrepnotes.zip
<nop>	http://office.invisiblenet.net/jrand0mnetwork_protocol.txt
<jrand0m>	meetingPrepnotes.zip is a small doc that summarizes the meeting,
	  and the meeting was basically "ok, any thoughts?".
<--	Delly has quit (EOF From client)
<jrand0m>	essentially, the proposal is to get going on a generic secure
	  anonymous message based system, and run iip on top of that
<mids>	is there a zip with anonCommFramework too?
<nop>	I didn't see that
<nop>	jrand0m can you zip and send I'll post to site
<jrand0m>	sure, h/o
<--	Phiberoptika has quit (* ciaito mua mua *)
<Neo>	what is anonCommFramework?
<jrand0m>	uber-quick summary of the meeting in iip_future.zip is "ok,
	  here's the proposal, any comments?" and comments were basically "ok, can IIP work
	  as planned on this?
<jrand0m>	if you're on freenet, anonCommFramework is at
*	jrand0m is sending nop a zip of that momentarily
<Rain>	Did you discuss support for PGP-based nyms?
<nop>	ah hem, this is early discussions
<--	ChZEROHag has quit (Ping timeout)
<jrand0m>	no, endpoints in the framework are not nym based, they're idents
<Rain>	Right. So nyms an higher level.
<Rain>	are
<jrand0m>	(and for lots of reasons, they shouldn't be long term idents
	  like nyms)
<jrand0m>	yes
<Rain>	I was just thinking of something like trent with PGP signarute auth.
<mids>	trent is central
<mids>	central=bad
-->	logger (~hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
<jrand0m>	briefly, anonCommFramework is a meta-network.  a generic set
	  of protocols &amp; structures that an anonymous communication network could use to
	  interoperate to provide militant grade anonymity
<wilde> what's the one sentence explanation of your ideas on network topology?
-->	ChZEROHag (~hag@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
<ChZEROHag>	that was fun
-->	Delly (dedede@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
<Rain>	mids: Yea. I meant similar services.
<lonelynerd>	what about having to pay with hashcash to send data? couldn't
	  that help against flooding?
<jrand0m>	wilde> heterogeneous.  no one answer solves all problems.
	  interoperate, balancing latency, bandwidth, anonymity, and reliability to provide
	  the user's needs
<Delly> still in 4) ?
<hezekiah>	Delly: Yup
<Delly> thx
<ChZEROHag>	I think when the ircd is removed from the equation, we'll have
	  far better options than (hash|think|real)cash
<nop>	jrand0m: any luck sending
<nop>	;)
<jrand0m>	uploading to hush now.
<jrand0m>	ChZEROHag> anonCommFramework has built in support for providing
	  network use authorization credentials
<Rain>	There has been a lot of talk of IIP-Freenet interoparability. Will that
	  fit into the framework, or are we talking application-level again?
<ChZEROHag>	come again?
<jrand0m>	app level
<jrand0m>	what we're discussing is splitting iip into two parts - the irc
	  part, and the message based secure anonymous network
<wilde> one solution could be:
<Rain>	jrand0m: k.
<wilde> Application <-> SOCKS5 Proxy Interface <-> Onion Wrapper <-> Onion Router
	  1 <-> ... <-> Onion Router N <-> Exit Relay <-> Public Server
<jrand0m>	building a DHT on top of the message layer should be fairly easy
<hezekiah>	DHT?
<jrand0m>	distributed hash table
<jrand0m>	(ala freenet)
<nop>	ok, jrand0m let me clarify
<ChZEROHag>	wilde: I think the plan is to design it such that the 'public
	  server' could be removed from the equation at some point
<nop>	are we talking about splitting irc, or merging to focus on anonymity
<jrand0m>	well, given unlimited # of developers, splitting and doing both
	  (well, 3 things ;) in parallel.
<nop>	what I mean is that the irc part is application layer
<jrand0m>	given reality, there's prolly only enough dev time to get the
	  comm system running first, then iip on top
<jrand0m>	right exactly
<nop>	and since we have a somewhat viable network working with IIP
<jrand0m>	irc is just another app running on it
<nop>	then the idea should be
<nop>	is to have developers start focusing on framework aspects
<wilde> ChZEROHag: ok, what I suggested is an anonymizing layer for regular
	  internet traffic, not a seperate network
<hezekiah>	(This could get fun.)
<nop>	wilde there are weaknesses to that
<nop>	just to let you know
<nop>	aka the clear text on the outer ends
<--	AmishOne has quit (EOF From client)
<wilde> nop: yes, so all connections should be encrypted to the ends
<nop>	we have an effort as well to have anonymous web browsing possible with
	  this network
<jrand0m>	yes.  it must be able to operate without ever leaving the mixnet
<nop>	but it is not as real time direct as your proposal wilde
<nop>	it uses some time delay tactics
<nop>	with caching etc
<nop>	timing attacks are a serious threat to anonymity
	  FBI TRAPs !!
<mids>	http://mids.student.utwente.nl/~mids/anonCommFramework/
<nop>	hifi, this isn't changing IIP, this is moving us forward
<nop>	thanks mids
<jrand0m>	heh word mids, my moz is hanging
<nop>	ok
<wilde> although independant mixnets are cool, the real killer apps will probably
	  be general ip traffic anonymizers
<nop>	wilde, they are myths
<wilde> killer apps?
<nop>	no
<--	thetower has quit (EOF From client)
<jrand0m>	wilde> that could be a service built on top of the comm layer
<nop>	general ip traffic anonymizers
<wilde> or ip traffic anonymizers?
<nop>	so far they don't exist
<nop>	they exist in papers only
-->	thetower (none@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
<jrand0m>	if you build an anonymizing service on top of the comm layer,
	  however, your outbound routers will get shut down quickly
<thetower>	Haha, I just noticed I wasn't port forwarding.
<thetower>	Oop, sorry, wrong chan
<wilde> nop: what about the ZKS system?
<nop>	is it still around?
<nop>	and working
<wilde> nope, bad business
<wilde> few people paid
<wilde> but the framework seemed to work, but all nodes were ZKS:s paid relays
<nop>	wilde but they were internal and it wasn't complete
<nop>	it still had certain vulnerabilities
<nop>	it was a start
<nop>	I met Ian Goldberg at CodeCon 2k2, and he himself admitted it was incomplete
	  to what he desired
<wilde> yes, everything has vulnerabilities, we just raise the cost of tracing
<jrand0m>	right, after the mixnet is up and running, i'd like to see wilde
	  offer generic outbound proxy services.	that'd be cool
<jrand0m>	(sincerely)
<nop>	jrand0m: but again the ultimate would be using that magic mirror concept
	  for optimum protection
<ChZEROHag>	Probably the hardest option, but wouldn't freenet be a good
	  framework to build from?
<nop>	wilde, maybe you and I can discuss this in another forum at some point
<jrand0m>	but in any case, the network must be built first
<ChZEROHag>	Or is that not what we're discussing?
<jrand0m>	ChZEROHag> no.
<jrand0m>	freenet doesn't provide hard anonymity
<ChZEROHag>	aah
<ChZEROHag>	I should try paying attention
<nop>	ok, moving forward
<nop>	UserX you still here
<wilde> nop: yes, if you have decided on topology there is no need to discuss
	  this in public
<UserX> I'm still here
<nop>	well it's application layer, so that comes after net design etc
<nop>	ok
<nop>	where did we leave off at #iip-future meeting
<--	hezekiah has quit (Ping timeout)
<nop>	let's start there
---	logger is now known as Ehud
*	nop is catching up on the meeting logs
<jrand0m>	[04:31] <jrand0m> I think we're back to your question.	can /
	  should the irc functionality move forward as its going or move towards this mixnet.
	  there are significant benefits to move towards the mixnet, but some aspects of
	  the irc side seem to require some redesign to operate on it.
<jrand0m>	[04:31] <jrand0m> the right way for the irc development to go is
	  not for me to say
<Ehud>	Basically, UserX had some thinking to do about wether IIP could run
	  satisfactorily on the mixnet.
<mids>	nite all
<--	mids (mids@anon.iip) has left #iip-dev (mids)
<ChZEROHag>	Would it not be an idea to create a replacement irc in parallel
	  with a mixnet?
<ChZEROHag>	After all it's going to be damn hard to use a normal ircd
<jrand0m>	ChZEROHag> given infinite # devs, yes
<nop>	ok ChZEROHag silence please :)
<ChZEROHag>	Assume infinite devs
<ChZEROHag>	Oh is this not a question bit?
-->	hezekiah (hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
<nop>	not yet
<UserX> Unfortuantlely I haven't had time to seriously sit down and think about
	  how your proposal would fit in with IIP
<ChZEROHag>	oh
<ChZEROHag>	oops
<nop>	just want to get into the discussion
<nop>	well
<jrand0m>	UserX> think of the mixnet as a socket
<nop>	let me suggest something
<nop>	do we agree that our goal is not just IRC ?
<lonelynerd>	well
<Delly> it's a great idea sure
<hezekiah>	nop: Beyond all doubts, I agree that the goal is an anonymous
<lonelynerd>	doing something traffic-intensive would have the potential to
	  ruin the whole project
<hezekiah>	nop: IRC is just a starting point.
<nop>	ok, well what we should look at is this
<jrand0m>	NOT doing something traffic intensive has the potential to get
	  us to overlook problems :)
<nop>	instead of saying IIP doesn't fit
<nop>	or it does fit
<nop>	let's look at what modifications need to be made for irc to fit with this
	  mixnet, whether it's a mod to the mixnet itself
<lonelynerd>	jrand0m: hmm
<nop>	for instance
<nop>	UserX has a vision of using channels as endpoints
<nop>	Jrand0m calls them idents
<nop>	are they having subtle differences
<nop>	or are they largely different
<jrand0m>	there's substance to those differences.
<nop>	can we review that
<nop>	on both sides
<nop>	from jrand0m and UserX
<--	hezekiah has quit (EOF From client)
<nop>	actually
<nop>	read the log
<nop>	nevermind
<jrand0m>	;)
-->	hezekiah (hezekiah@anon.iip) has joined #iip-dev
<jrand0m>	the hesitancy I have w/ sending messages to a channel ident and
	  having that channel redistribute it to members is that the channel gets plaintext
<nop>	how does it get plaintext?
<jrand0m>	instead, I'd suggest having a channel contain just the channel info
	  (modes, users, topic, etc)
<jrand0m>	the channel is just an application running on one (well, 3+)
	  routers listening to one (well, 3+) identities.  when you /msg a channel, you
	  send a message to that identity (application).	it then resends it out to the N
	  users in the channel, encrypted to each
<nop>	well
<nop>	I had a proposal for that
<nop>	that would have the channel not contain plaintext
<nop>	directly
<jrand0m>	at least, without adding a channel key (which would be managed
	  by the channel application itself, which defeats the point)
<nop>	well
<nop>	we were having channel keys
<nop>	for private channels
<nop>	and pub channels are public anyway
<jrand0m>	right.	there may be ways around it.  y'all know more about irc
	  than I do.  there are other ways that don't require going this route though
<nop>	see the neat thing with message channels is this
<nop>	you scale slightly better than trying to find all idents to send to directly
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<jrand0m>	I'm not sure you scale better, but you do redistribute the load
<jrand0m>	(we can find idents via O(log(n)))
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<jrand0m>	but thats neither here nor there, this is application layer
	  design ;)
<nop>	right
<jrand0m>	all we need to do, imho, is find some workable ways that *could*
	  operate on the comm layer and then leave it to the wayside until we get there
<UserX> jrand0m: messages sent to channels are encrypted with a channel key that
	  is different to the channel's identity. a channel server can't decrypt a message
	  unless it has come across the key by othermeans
<sahara>	did I miss the meeting?
<jrand0m>	you've got some ways that could work, it sounds like, right?
<jrand0m>	UserX> how does a user joining a channel get the key?
<hezekiah>	sahara: Nope. You're right in the middle of it! :)
<nop>	it's a key exchange
<jrand0m>	with whom nop?
<jrand0m>	brand new user joining #anonymous, and the app containing the
	  list of users on #anonymous doesn't have the key (As userx said)
<jrand0m>	(all I'm saying is there's a way to get all the functionality
	  and still avoid having a channel key)
<UserX> jrand0m: with public channels it is derived from the channel name. with
	  private channels the user either creates one or a someone gives them the keys to
	  the channel
<jrand0m>	'k, cool
<jrand0m>	so apps managing public channels can read the plaintext (by
	  deriving from the channel name)
<jrand0m>	(which is prolly fine)
<nop>	right
<wilde> jrand0m: if the apps encrypt the plaintext to each recepient, will it
	  scale well?
<jrand0m>	yes wilde, perhaps better (depending on the algorithm used to
	  nominate channel managers)
<jrand0m>	(though it will potentially have a nonserialized delivery)
<jrand0m>	((though i think thats the case with normal irc anyway))
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<jrand0m>	but, getting back on to the question -
<jrand0m>	nop, what do we hope to have decided by the end of the discussion
	  of #4?
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<nop>	well
<--	sahara has quit (EOF From client)
<hifi>	simple site , problem is i am tech blond but want good things lol
<nop>	I was hoping that we could re-organize, but this is gonna be a discussion
	  for later
<hifi>	sorry OOPS
<nop>	UserX
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<nop>	how long will you need to think about certain aspects, and maybe doc them
	  up as a concern list
<UserX> hard to say. maybe a week
<nop>	what I'm thinking jrand0m is that a lot of this needs sorting out, rather
	  than just plowing into it, or we'll end up at the beginning with nothing to show
<nop>	so let's push a week into this
<nop>	and see what concerns are coming into play
<nop>	because again
<nop>	we want an adaptable mixnet
<nop>	any application should be able to survive
<jrand0m>	absolutely
<jrand0m>	thats the point of the anon comm framework
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<nop>	ok, so let's put this off a week, and focus on some realistic proposals
	  that can fit all of our needs
<jrand0m>	you say "send message M to location L" and it magically, securely,
	  anonymously gets delivered
<nop>	but magic is one thing
<nop>	science is another
<nop>	of course you know that :)
<jrand0m>	the magic is from the app level's perspective ;)
<nop>	yes
<nop>	understood
<jrand0m>	the science is in that 15 page anonCommFramework/2// ;)
<nop>	ok
<hezekiah>	lol
<nop>	UserX, if you can get that in a week that would be helpful
<nop>	?
<jrand0m>	I'll aim at revamping the docs &amp; getting comm layer network design
	  ready for then so we can hit the ground running
<nop>	well
<nop>	we haven't agreed on certain aspects
<nop>	I think that still should be hashed out
<jrand0m>	what, in the network layer, haven't we agreed on?
<nop>	personally I agree that maybe you post your anonCommFramework on iip-dev
<nop>	and have it reviewed and commented
*	jrand0m isn't on iip-dev
<Rain>	So, meeting again next tuesday, same bat-time, same bat-channel?
<nop>	what haven't we agreed on is whether it can support all applications
<hezekiah>	jrand0m: Just post to iip-dev@invisiblenet.net .
<hezekiah>	Rain: We are on item #4. There are still other items to go. :)
<jrand0m>	its ~800k.  if someone could post the URL to mids' mirror that'd
	  be cool
<Delly> argh
<Delly> re
<Delly> about services, i think if IIP become more easier and friendly, we will see
	  more users and more nodes. it's why i'm making script for mIRC user, one is a Trent
	  script, allowing to use Trent and Anonymail with the mouse, the other is a script
	  allowing to transfer file over iip, staying anonymous (using uuencoding). The
	  "protocol" used is easy and could be done for lot's irc clients with scripting
	  support. And so everybody could transfer little files, even between di
<jrand0m>	nop> I'm 100% certain it can support all applications.
<Rain>	hezekiah: Right. My missunderstanding.
<jrand0m>	this layer has been used for over a decade in hundreds of industries
<Delly> was my thought of the day
<nop>	well then where do we not agree
<nop>	if Irc is an issue, then how is it adaptable?
<jrand0m>	it isn't an issue
<jrand0m>	y'all just don't understand the layer's abstraction ;)
<lonelynerd>	Delly: i have a perl script that allows one to use ssh/telnet/etc
	  over irc
<jrand0m>	(really, think of it as a socket)
<Delly> lonelynerd, the goal was just to enhance mirc
<Delly> for iip network
<lonelynerd>	Delly: yeah, but if you use base64, i think it's compatible with
	  this one
<Delly> could be possible tu use it
<jrand0m>	ok, we ready for #5 yet?
<hezekiah>	nop?
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<Delly> oups i thought it was 5)  !
<ChZEROHag>	There's a 5?
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<nop>	sorry
<nop>	delly
<nop>	you guys
<nop>	this is off topic
<nop>	please reserve your conversation outside this channel
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<nop>	well
<nop>	jrand0m
---	hezekiah_ is now known as hezekiah
<nop>	before I agree to go to 5
<nop>	the problem I'm seeing is
<nop>	UserX has a voice
<nop>	as well
---	Trent@anon.iip gives channel operator status to hezekiah
<jrand0m>	of course
<nop>	and if he sees logistical problems
<nop>	I believe they should be heard
<nop>	so you can't just say, hey it's gonna work
<nop>	it has to be "solidly" agreed on both ends
<nop>	aka he needs convincing
<jrand0m>	right, but I'm not going to sit on my thumbs waiting for him
	  to doc them up.  if he does come up with some problems in a week, fantastic,
	  and we'll revise accordingly
<nop>	or he needs to convine you
<nop>	but the idea is this
<nop>	what I'm trying to propose with this
<nop>	is to reorganize our dev team to get on your bandwagon
<nop>	with that
<nop>	it would put our energy in working on the network design
<nop>	that's the idea
<nop>	thus helping all of us get somewhere specific
<nop>	I'm not trying to slow down
<jrand0m>	right, i don't expect to have a V1.0 final protocol spec next week.
	  last night I downloaded about 50 new articles off citeseer to do some more research
<nop>	ok
<nop>	so can we post your proposal to iip-dev
<nop>	and get some review
<jrand0m>	coo'
<nop>	also I advise on your own to propose it on cryptography@metzdowd.com
<nop>	which will get some serious review
<jrand0m>	sounds good
<nop>	ok
<nop>	UserX, you there
<UserX> i'm here
<nop>	ok, so jrand0m will work on protocol spec, and can I assume you'll come
	  up with a concerns list or some additives to the protocol?
<UserX> yes
<nop>	ok, let's resume this in a week
<nop>	what was 5?
<nop>	sorry If I'm being a pain
<nop>	just want to organize it
<nop>	to make sure we're all on same page
<jrand0m>	recruiting for services...?
<hezekiah>	5) Recruiting for services to aid with IIP
<nop>	ok
<nop>	yes
<nop>	since mids departure
<nop>	and cohesions return
<nop>	we are possibly looking for others to contribute to IIP in some aspect
<nop>	this does not mean you have to be a hardcore core developer
<nop>	but additives like maybe a web maintainer would be good,
<nop>	some PR would be good
<hezekiah>	luckypunk volunteered to manage the website.
<hezekiah>	<luckypunk> I wanna help/take over the IIP website.
<hezekiah>	<luckypunk> :D
<nop>	and if more people would like to hop on with the upcoming project that
	  jrand0m is proposing
<jrand0m>	wikked
<nop>	even if you just want to review the protocol
<nop>	that is more than enough help
<nop>	the reality is this
<nop>	we have a lot of developers with real time jobs
<nop>	and it is consuming them at the moment
<nop>	and any additional help is wanted
<nop>	since this is a huge endeavor
<nop>	to take IIP to where it needs to be
<nop>	aka InvisibleNet at some point
<nop>	real life jobs ;)
<nop>	anyway
<nop>	the idea is
<nop>	it would be cool if people would love to add to this project in some ways
<nop>	using their skills, and I know their are some programmers out there
<nop>	and a few that have some spare tiem
<nop>	time
<nop>	luckypunk's reliability will have to be reviewed, no offense, I've had
	  him offer before with help maintaining a freesite, and no luck there
<hezekiah>	nop: I can understand that one. ;-)
<hezekiah>	nop: He just asked me to forward the offer along because he
	  wouldn't be here.
<nop>	ok
<hezekiah>	nop: I did. My part's done. :)
<nop>	well, either way, anyone who wants to join in
<nop>	contact one of us
<nop>	either at iip@invisiblenet.net
<hezekiah>	One of whom?
<nop>	or just by nick,
<nop>	hezekiah, userx, nop,
<jrand0m>	I hear anyone who volutneers to help iip gets free hookers and blow
<hezekiah>	What are 'hookers and blow'?
<hezekiah>	... or do I not want to know?
<jrand0m>	heh
<nop>	hezekiah: don't ask
<hezekiah>	OK.
<hezekiah>	I don't want to know. :)
<nop>	hezekiah: enjoy your sheltered life ;)
<nop>	while you can
<nop>	cuz college is gonna be fun :)
<hezekiah>	I'm enjoying it! I'm enjoying it!
*	jrand0m enjoys the hookers and blow ;)
<nop>	jrand0m: quick question
*	w hugs luckypunk and nop
<jrand0m>	si sr?
<nop>	jrand0m: are you considering yourself a dev of IIP at some time soon?
<nop>	since you are offering a merge ;)
<hifi>	sorry , opps again
<jrand0m>	nop> a dev of invisiblenet, but I can't contribute to iip
<nop>	understood
<nop>	IIP == invisiblenet future projects
<hezekiah>	jrand0m: Good working!
<hezekiah>	jrand0m: Wording.
<nop>	devs wanted for either
<nop>	to make that clear
<nop>	specifically cuz jrand0m could use a good team set
<Addic> I could take a look of the Windows code...
<jrand0m>	si sr.	once we get rolling into software design, there's going
	  to be more truckloads of work than one can imagine
<jrand0m>	word Addic
<nop>	awesome
<nop>	ok
<nop>	I will send this request on iip-dev line as well
<nop>	anyone interested please don't hesitate to contact
<nop>	was there a 6?
<nop>	I believe so
<jrand0m>	6) comments suggestions and people who want to help
<jrand0m>	suggestion: < 1.8 hours next time :)
<jrand0m>	(not that any of the topics could have been condensed any more
	  than they were)
<nop>	no comments?
*	nop thinks everyone's asleep
<nop>	hehe
<nop>	we bored them
<jrand0m>	w3wt
<Addic> heh, who has been working on the Windows' code this far?
<nop>	ok
<hifi>	zzzzzz...
<nop>	UserX has made it so far portable
<Rain>	What kind of talents are we looking for?
<Addic> ok
<nop>	ok, let me re-iterate
<nop>	Coders, Graphics dudes, Web devs, PR people, Web maintainers
<Rain>	Ok, missed that. Sry.
<nop>	and if you can write biz plans, that helps me too :)
<nop>	you didn't miss
<nop>	I didn't go in enough detail
<jrand0m>	heh
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<hifi>	I am Born PR people
<Rain>	Step one: Collect Underpants.
<Addic> translating to other languages at wiki?
<nop>	yes
<nop>	that would be great
<nop>	translations
<Addic> ok, i could do that too
<nop>	documentation
<nop>	etc
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<nop>	even organization
<nop>	anyone who wants to be actively involved in helping InvisibelNet/IIP
<hifi>	I invite ppl to use IIP alll the time
<nop>	thnx hifi
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<Rain>	What kind of org skills?
<nop>	well, maybe help run the meetings, or maybe forcing us dev guys to get
	  more docs on the protocol
<nop>	etc
<nop>	possibly organize interviews and some type of press releases
<nop>	some ideas for the future of promoting the use of IIP
<nop>	etc
<nop>	ok, please contact one of us if you want to help out
<Rain>	Ok, org question, that I have mentioned before: IIP Signing key? (nag, nag)
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<hifi>	IIP notification service :) for ppl to knoe I /him is online LOL
<qriff> just as a question for the qurious... what defines the holder for "Trent"...
<qriff> and what about channel/nick expiration...
<qriff> registration that is...
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<jrand0m>	trent is a service, not a nick, so trent must have access to the
	  ircd (i think)
<nop>	these questions are mids questions for trent, he's an abstract piece
<nop>	yes jrand0m
<jrand0m>	iip notification would be cool.  how does anonymail do it?
<jrand0m>	can clients send a /notify nick to the server and get a msg when
	  the nick joins?
<hifi>	IIP SMS notification LOL
<nop>	actually
<nop>	we did have IIP SMS as the first version of anonymail
<nop>	but it tended to flood
<hifi>	oh
<nop>	so now we do it as anonymail database delivery
<hifi>	IIP invitation msg as signature to ordinary e-mails ...
<hifi>	Kinda " Do yo Yahoo ? Get MSN free " stuff
<jrand0m>	ooOOoo textAds
<jrand0m>	but does iip need more users?
<hifi>	oh
<jrand0m>	or is getting more users just a "oh cool, lets service more people"?
<hifi>	no
<hifi>	dunno
<hifi>	i just brainstorm
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<hezekiah>	More people ... more ideas ... more volunteers
<hifi>	IIP as world standart will be cool
<hezekiah>	More people ... more problems ... more strain on the network ...
<hezekiah>	... more floods of #anonymous ...
<hezekiah>	It's a two sided question.
<hifi>	more channels lol
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<hifi>	IIP Eugenics Program LOL Less Population Less Problems
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<Addic> hmm... going back to the notification question... is it so the /notify
	  nick does not work here? Or am I not understanding the question...
<lonelynerd>	Addic: sure it works
<Addic> well what's the problem then?
<hifi>	?
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<lonelynerd>	wasn't much following the conversation, but they talked about
	  having a /notify that wouldn't require the client to poll
<Addic> ok
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<hezekiah>	Hmmm ...
<hezekiah>	I think it's about time we adjurne this meeting.
<hezekiah>	What do you say, nop?
*	jrand0m thinks he fell asleep too
<nop>	yeah
<nop>	ok
<nop>	later
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<hezekiah>	Meeting adjurned! :)
<hezekiah>	*BAF*!
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