I2P dev meeting, October 22, 2013 @ 20:00 UTC

Quick recap

  • Present: dg, efkt, kytv, Meeh, Pseudonemo, str4d topiltzin, welterde, zzz

Registo Completo do IRC

20:00:54  <zzz> http://zzz.i2p/topics/1490 - 15 minutes max per item, 5 minutes for brief items
20:00:54  <zzz> 0) hi
20:00:54  <zzz> 1) http://salt.i2p console home page request (carried over from Sept. 10 meeting)
20:00:55  <zzz> 2) http://no.i2p services request (Meeh)
20:00:55  <zzz>   2a) Add to default i2ptunnel jump list
20:00:55  <zzz>   2b) Add to recommended addressbook subscriptions on FAQ
20:00:57  <zzz>   2c) Add to registration help text on eepsite help
20:00:59  <zzz> 3) Additional backup release signer - Need new su3 keys, HH hasn't added his yet, do we need another person?
20:01:02  <zzz> 4) Console home page icons needed http://zzz.i2p/topics/1492 (brief)
20:01:04  <zzz> 5) Website revamp (str4d) (brief)
20:01:08  <zzz> 6) Trac update - thanks to Meeh and kytv (brief)
20:01:09  <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: Meeting Tues. Oct. 22 8 PM UTC (at zzz.i2p)
20:01:10  <zzz> 7) Allow marketplaces on eepsite registration services? (zab)
20:01:13  <zzz> 0) hi
20:01:14  <zzz> 1) http://salt.i2p console home page request (carried over from Sept. 10 meeting)
20:01:18  <dg> hi
20:01:18  <iRelay> Title: salted (at salt.i2p)
20:01:20  <dg> efkt_:
20:01:25  <zzz> efkt_, are you here?
20:01:25  <kytv> +1 for salt
20:01:36  <iRelay> Title: no.i2p registration service (at no.i2p)
20:01:37  <efkt_> Hi everyone. Yes I'm here.
20:01:41  <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: Console Home Page Icons (at zzz.i2p)
20:01:44  <iRelay> Title: salted (at salt.i2p)
20:02:20  <topiltzin> +1 for salt
20:02:38  <dg> +1 for salt
20:02:43  <zzz> I only have one question - where does the name come from,does it mean "salt" or does it stand for something? should it be translated?
20:03:00  <dg> Salt's a great community resource and efkt_ is extremely welcoming. I don't have a bad word to say about him :)
20:04:26  <efkt_> zzz: It really doesn't stand for anything. Unfortunately some security-thing startup recently opted to use "Salt" as well. The idea behind the name was: NaCl crypto, salted hashes as the "thematic choice"
20:05:07  <efkt_> Just having fun is all.
20:05:38  <efkt_> It leads to a lot of questions "what the hell is salt?" Why salt?
20:07:44  <efkt_> As for translation, I don't see that it would be useful to call it something other than what is used for the short url
20:07:47  <zzz> so would we translate it in the console or not?
20:07:57  <str4d> +1 for salt
20:08:51  <str4d> "take everything you read on I2P with a pinch of salt"
20:09:09  <dg> hah
20:09:19  <efkt_> Haha. RN has ceaseless salt jokes.
20:11:36  <zzz> ok. I noticed the icon you submitted doesn't have a transparent part. It might look better if it did. Or maybe not. May depend on the theme
20:11:36  <zzz> if you're happy with the icon it's fine I guess
20:11:36  <zzz> hearing no objections I think that's it for 1). I'll check it in.
20:11:36  <zzz> moving on to 2) no.i2p - is Meeh here?
20:11:42  <str4d> Perhaps it should be translated.
20:17:33  <zzz> in the short term, only generating a public key, storing your private key somewhere safe, and checking it in
20:17:53  <zzz> if me and kytv get hit by a bus, then you would be the one building and signing the releaase
20:18:07  <zzz> which is basically running 'ant release'
20:18:08  <dg> I can do it also then. I won't be able to take responsibility for writing code though.
20:18:33  <zzz> writing release notes, distributing the files, starting torrents, writing the news are all related activities
20:18:34  <dg> So, please look both ways before crossing!
20:19:00  <zzz> basically you'd be a packager / release manager
20:19:23  <dg> yeah, I can do this.
20:19:41  <zzz> I think str4d would be well-suited
20:20:40  <zzz> dg have you done much with monotone? do you have checkin privs now?
20:21:14  <dg> zzz: I've not had checkin privs to i2p.i2p and I'm not a mtn pro. I get it enough to use it but advanced trickery is beyond me.
20:21:22  <dg> If str4d is more appropriate, that's fine.
20:21:50  <zzz> other acks/nacks on str4d ?
20:29:18  <kytv@kytv> ffs, I'll relay:
20:30:12  <kytv@kytv> http://pastethis.i2p/show/5965
20:30:13  <iRelay@kytv> Title: Paste #5965 | LodgeIt! (at pastethis.i2p)
20:30:14  <kytv@kytv> bah
20:30:32  <dg> welcome back
20:30:43  <zzz> ok
20:30:44  <zzz> repost
20:30:50  <zzz> hearing no objection let's welcome str4d as our newest backup release signer
20:30:55  <zzz> str4d, kytv or I can help you generate your keys and check them in
20:31:03  <zzz> excellent. I'm always worried about the bus.
20:31:06  <zzz> 4) Console home page icons needed http://zzz.i2p/topics/1492 (brief)
20:31:12  <zzz> just wanted to mention the icons thing here, to highlight postman badger sponge eche|on kytv et al
20:31:20  <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: Console Home Page Icons (at zzz.i2p)
20:31:41  <zzz> pick or design an icon or we will pick one for you
20:32:01  <zzz> you have a couple weeks
20:32:17  <zzz> thanks to str4d for his detailed post on what is in fux
20:32:32  <zzz> anybody else have anything to say about this?
20:32:49  * kytv is indifferent
20:33:11  <zzz> ok moving on
20:33:11  <dg> it'd be nice to have a prettier set of icons. I like the fux set. that's all.
20:33:12  <zzz> 5) Website revamp (str4d) (brief)
20:33:33  <zzz> str4d, what's the status and what's blocking progress?
20:33:57  <str4d> Status: .py files are not updating for some reason (they were)
20:34:22  <str4d> When a .py file updates, the webserver needs to be restarted, but the script to do that has stopped working.
20:34:46  <str4d> Other than that, not much.
20:35:28  <str4d> CSS issues were shown on IE, it looks like on the frontpage the BG image is not displaying, but I can't test.
20:35:28  <zzz> you need welterde_ or just time?
20:35:33  <topiltzin> revamp site has issues with IE{7,8}.  IE9 is untested.  I don't know if we care about that.
20:35:57  <topiltzin> IE10 works fine so I'm inclined to not worry about the older versions
20:36:05  <str4d> On non-frontpage pages, IE{7,8} is terrible.
20:36:49  <str4d> But that is not really a blocker.
20:37:02  <str4d> wrt content, is everyone happy with the front page as-is?
20:37:13  <zzz> ok. just would love to see us get past the finish line on this. On Sept. 1st on tx, you announced it would go live in a week :)
20:37:20  <dg> yes, str4d
20:37:53  <str4d> zzz: yea, shortly after that I discovered the .py problem and ran out of time to fix.
20:38:20  <zzz> ok thx for the update str4d. anything else on 5) ?
20:38:22  <str4d> If .py -> restart is not working, then welterde_ (and every mirror operator) need to manually restart every time.
20:38:33  <str4d> A few minor points:
20:38:55  <str4d> When updating for a release, there are two locations to change:
20:39:16  <str4d> i2p2www/__init__.py - CURRENT_I2P_VERSION
20:39:38  <str4d> and i2p2www/pages/downloads/list.html - the hashes at the top.
20:39:50  <zzz> maybe I can cut you short, no use training me until I need it, as I will ask again...
20:40:07  <str4d> zzz: fair enough. But that ^ is it.
20:40:30  <str4d> tl;dr - as soon as the .py problem is fixed, it is safe for live.
20:40:31  <zzz> ok, I'll copypasta it, might lose it, might not.
20:41:01  <kytv> (mine's updating/restarting FWIW   (http://geti2pj2fl72u4m2.onion/ / http://kfri3jwfsi2uy7j3pbzykbbaoqoj4siyhf3hozln3wxcrkvvityq.b32.i2p/))
20:41:04  <iRelay> Title: I2P Anonymous Network (at geti2pj2fl72u4m2.onion)
20:41:16  <zzz> ok then let's ask welterde_ to help out here
20:41:49  <zzz> ok thx for the update str4d. anything else on 5) ?
20:42:06  <str4d> It's *much* simpler than current :-P
20:42:13  <str4d> kytv: thanks - which script?
20:42:16  <str4d> (but I'm done with 5)
20:42:25  <zzz> bah. I got my sed script :)
20:42:25  <str4d> Oh, one other point:
20:42:34  <zzz> 6) Trac update - thanks to Meeh and kytv (brief)
20:42:40  <str4d> I want us to think about the /research page
20:42:42  <kytv> (yw)
20:43:11  <str4d> Just putting the thought out.
20:43:32  <kytv> str4d: it's a modification of the one in i2p.www.revamp that I made for future appliance. I can pastebin it later.
20:43:35  <zzz> I just put this on the agenda to thank kytv and his helpers Meeh and welterde_  for moving, hosting, upgrading, managing, etc and getting it back up
20:43:54  * dg thanks
20:44:18  <str4d> kytv++
20:44:20  <zzz> it's an important resource that got hammered by spam and then disabled by me and then broken by kytv, but we won't mention that part since we're thanking him...
20:44:41  <efkt_> bwahaha
20:44:52  * str4d had plans to help, until kytv sabotaged those plans and took the glory for himself ;-P
20:45:17  <zzz> oh yeah sorry str4d you did do quite a lot too in the early stages
20:45:42  <zzz> ok enough of that, back to the beatings
20:45:47  <zzz> 7) Allow marketplaces on eepsite registration services? (zab)
20:46:18  <zzz> I have 3 of them in the stats.i2p queue, everybody piling in after the silk road thing
20:46:49  <str4d> Enforcing this is not trivial - we only know if the person registering makes it obvious in the domain or the about description.
20:46:51  <dg> I don't think anybody will target $registrar for saying yes
20:46:53  <zzz> we had several silkroad* registrations last year, I approved them at the time, none were around for long
20:46:57  <Meeh> sorry I'm late, but here now
20:47:15  <zzz> Meeh will be back to you shortly, we are on 7)
20:47:21  <Meeh> np
20:47:52  <zzz> zab what would you like to say about this
20:48:00  <zzz> ^^ topiltzin
20:48:00  <topiltzin> In the interest of full disclosure, I have significant investment in bitcoin.  So I'm naturally supportive of anything that promotes use of bitcoin
20:48:00  <zzz> enforcing is never a sure thing
20:48:26  <topiltzin> in fact, part of the reason I'm working on i2p is to prepare for a possible future where anonymous marketplaces cannot use tor anymore
20:48:42  <topiltzin> </end full disclosure>
20:49:03  <zzz> I could reject either on 1) its illegal 2) brings attention we dont need or 3) i2p really isnt safe enough for markets
20:49:13  <zzz> but all those are shaky reasons
20:49:18  <dg> If 3), I don't know what we are safe for
20:49:21  <str4d> But on the assumption that we can discover which domains are for marketplaces:
20:49:22  <str4d> topiltzin ^
20:49:35  <dg> I don't agree with ever saying "Hey, $group, come to us! We're like, safe and things!" but a little confidence is good too
20:49:49  <Pseudonemo> as regards public perception, policies can help, even if they aren't perfectly enforcible, imo
20:50:01  <topiltzin> 3) is something the operators of the marketplaces need to decide for themselves
20:50:45  <Meeh> I agree with you there topiltzin, the operators choose
20:50:46  <topiltzin> if 2) will happen it will happen regardless of addressbook policy
20:50:49  <zzz> fyi the three I'm sitting on are silkroadreloaded.i2p, market.i2p, and freemart.i2p - you can jump to all thru stats.i2p
20:51:02  <welterde_> still unable to figure out why restart is not working?
20:51:35  <welterde_> (just arrived)
20:52:00  <topiltzin> re 1) - that's the interesting one.  I suggest the following policy: if a market place advertises $ILLEGAL_ACTIVITY then it does not indexed
20:52:08  <str4d> welterde_: I haven't had time to investigate it.
20:52:18  <topiltzin> but a market that simply says "anonymous marketplace" should not be banned automatically
20:52:28  <welterde_> ic
20:52:32  <str4d> +1 on re 1)
20:52:34  <dg> most things here are anonymous
20:52:40  <efkt_> fwiw I think its reasonable to not outright ban all marketplaces and use a case-by-case basis, disallowing support for those who wish to use stats.i2p for drugs, assassination, arms, etc focusing on what is unsavory and not neccessarily what is illegal.
20:52:45  <Pseudonemo> I think topiltzin's suggestion is a reasonable compromise, fwiw
20:52:59  <str4d> stats.i2p is a voluntary service, not an "official" addressbook.
20:53:14  <zzz> I find it hard to get too worked up about drugs. If they're advertising CP or contract killings that's another story.
20:53:27  * dg nods
20:53:35  <str4d> Mmm.
20:53:43  <Pseudonemo> str4d: it's still linked on the router console, which would be considered a tacit endorsement by many
20:53:51  <Meeh> agreed
20:54:00  <str4d> IMHO the standard sort of T&C we require for routerconsole would be fine.
20:54:13  <dg> Pseudonemo: A link to a site that doesnt' really link to but can be contacted for info on a site people MAY not like? no
20:54:32  <Pseudonemo> fair enough
20:54:43  <zzz> I thnk I'll treat markets like forums and torrent sites, i.e. post a TOS and then I'll decide
20:54:48  <str4d> (but that does not mean that a marketplace would be accepted for routerconsole, that is a separate decision)
20:56:05  <topiltzin> that's fine.  It would  help if you publish some guidelines on what will NOT get indexed
20:56:12  <zzz> thanks guys for your thoughts. this is more my problem than a project issue and I needed some advice.
20:57:07  <dg> if you feel uneasy about it, you are within your rights not to allow them zzz
20:57:24  <dg> but i think it's ok as long as it's not crossing any moral lines
20:57:54  <zzz> it's all on http://stats.i2p/i2p/addkey.html - I guess I would just add 'markets' to the line about forums, trackers, file + image hosts...
20:57:54  <zzz> ok enough on 7)
20:57:54  <zzz> back around to:
20:57:54  <zzz> 2) http://no.i2p services request (Meeh)
20:57:54  <zzz>   2a) Add to default i2ptunnel jump list
20:57:54  <zzz>   2b) Add to recommended addressbook subscriptions on FAQ
20:57:56  <zzz>   2c) Add to registration help text on eepsite help
20:58:08  <iRelay> Title: Add a Key (at stats.i2p)
20:58:13  <zzz> take it away Meeh what you got for us?
20:58:24  <iRelay> Title: no.i2p registration service (at no.i2p)
20:59:06  <Meeh> well, I've setup a registration service with a TOS somewhat the same as stats.i2p, to help "decentralize" the naming service in I2P if needed
20:59:16  <zzz> ping Meeh
20:59:36  <Meeh> doesn't my messages get trough?
21:01:45  <str4d> I hear ya
21:01:45  <Meeh> ok good, I checked freenode so iRelay does too
21:01:45  <zzz> got it, lag
21:01:45  <zzz> yeah we really need more of everything and my registration service really stands out by itself
21:01:45  <zzz> just checked, I set it up in January of 2008 after orion.i2p vanished (snif)
21:02:08  <Meeh> yupp, so that's why I added it, to help "decentralize" it if needed
21:02:27  <zzz> slow's inr.i2p service is great but his anything-goes policy isn't compatible with ours
21:02:40  <Meeh> other than that I haven't thought much on it, so if people want to contribute with ideas, go ahead
21:02:51  <zzz> if you can work together on his software base, but have something managed, that's great
21:04:56  <dg> fwiw, inr.i2p is a thing.
21:05:24  <zzz> anybody reviewed Meeh's TOS or have any thoughts?
21:05:24  <topiltzin> I looked briefly, looked like copy-pasta of yours
21:05:24  <Meeh> yes, I will publish my changes. I've updated it to django 1.5 and added export-alive.txt "view" support
21:05:24  <topiltzin> +1 on no.i2p based on nothing but general Meeh awesomeness :)
21:05:24  <Meeh> topiltzin: yes, it was copy paste :P
21:05:24  <zzz> well, Meeh actually you have two pastas. one of slow's on no.i2p and one of mine on no.i2p/tos/
21:05:24  <Meeh> I wrote some myself, and copied most of it, to make it as close to the official rules as possible, since I guessed zzz followed them closely
21:05:24  <Meeh> yea, a mix
21:05:24  <Meeh> can change it ofc
21:05:26  <efkt_> +1 for no.i2p. Giving people more jump links and subscriptions is a plus. If there will be more sites registered with no.i2p I think it would be helpful to inform existing userbase about such a change.
21:05:45  <Meeh> I didn't remove the policies that was "acceptable" from the original source
21:05:46  <zzz> is it confusing to have overlapping stuff in two places?
21:05:51  <zzz> actually 3 with /postkey/
21:06:21  <Meeh> ok, I should fix that. but question is then, which is the best?
21:06:30  <Meeh> or, the most agreeable
21:06:37  <Meeh> which I can work more on
21:06:40  <zzz> speaking from experience you have to shout the TOS loud and clear
21:07:17  <zzz> fyi I'm getting about 75/month and rejecting about 3-5/month
21:07:54  <zzz> any objections to 2a) or 2b) or 2c) ?
21:08:16  <zzz> if not Meeh please do all the checkins yourself
21:08:23  <Meeh> ok, I get about 1-2 a week, but often they double register
21:08:26  <Meeh> both with you and me
21:08:32  <Meeh> for example silkroadreloaded
21:09:02  <zzz> anybody have anything else while I warm up the baffer?
21:10:21  <efkt_> zzz: dg: kytv: topiltzin: str4d: Thank you. It means a lot to have support.
21:10:56  <dg> Maybe we should talk about the roadmap next time and our plans.
21:10:56  <kytv> hosting for our downloads, unless there's already a plan, needs to be fleshed out.
21:10:56  <Meeh> ok. Then we say add to trunk? (no.i2p)
21:10:56  <Meeh> seems like we're on a new topic already :P
21:10:56  <kytv> +1 for no.i2p  (yes, add to trunk)
21:11:05  <zzz> oh, I'll note that I wrote down some rather obvious meeting policies on http://zzz.i2p/topics/1491 to make it clear anybody can schedule a meeting for anything at any time
21:11:20  <iRelay> Title: zzz.i2p: Project Meetings (at zzz.i2p)
21:11:25  <dg> efkt_: No problem. You're great!
21:11:38  <zzz> yeah, downloads and roadmap may be good for a future meeting
21:11:53  <dg> nothing for now from me
21:11:59  * zzz emphatically ***BAFS*** the meeting closed
21:12:12  <dg> :)