I2P dev meeting, DATE
Dellammo, dm, jrand0m, mihi, moi, wilde,
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[23:01] <jrand0m> agenda [23:01] <jrand0m> 0) welcome [23:01] <jrand0m> 1) 0.2 status [23:01] <jrand0m> 2) www proxy [23:01] * dm ponders. [23:02] <dm> oh, meeting? [23:02] <jrand0m> 3) phttprelay [23:02] <jrand0m> 4) i2ptunnel [23:02] <jrand0m> 5) installation [23:02] <dm> sorry. [23:02] <jrand0m> 6) iip feature request [23:02] <jrand0m> 7) ??? [23:02] <jrand0m> 0) welcome [23:02] <jrand0m> hi. [23:02] <jrand0m> meeting 62? is it? [23:02] <Dellammo> hi [23:02] <jrand0m> (no worry dm, we can forgive you) [23:02] <mihi> hi jrand0m [23:02] <dm> hi mihi [23:02] * mihi thinks so [23:03] <jrand0m> 1) 0.2 status [23:03] * jrand0m has had a severe case of feature-creep-itis as of late, so the 0.2 release still has about 30 minutes left of code left to do. [23:04] <jrand0m> but then we'll be able to run and communicate reliably regardless of NAT, firewall, or HTTP proxy. [23:04] * dm has just created I2PSecureRemoteShell 1.0 [23:04] <dm> cool jr! [23:05] <jrand0m> everything is functional, the only thing left to do is to expire unused database entries after N minutes (probably 5 for a default) [23:05] <jrand0m> the comm across NAT/firewall/HTTP proxy is the PHTTP transport. its slow, but reliable. [23:05] <dm> how does it work? what ports does it use? [23:06] <jrand0m> it sends the message to a reachable PHTTP relay, which stores the message, and then the receiver polls for messages ever N seconds [23:06] <jrand0m> there is a LOT that can be tuned and improved on that side of things, which is agenda point 3 :) [23:06] <dm> P stands for? [23:06] <jrand0m> Polling HTTP [23:06] <dm> ok thanks. [23:07] <jrand0m> I'm going to update the "kludges" page on the wiki after the meeting too, to note the things that are funky [23:07] <jrand0m> (such as not yet handling a lease change during communication) [23:08] <jrand0m> the other point to discuss is agenda item 5 - installation. aka how we should handle installation of the router/sdk/tunnel/etc [23:08] <jrand0m> ok, thats it for 0.2 status [23:08] <jrand0m> 2) www proxy. [23:09] <jrand0m> moi had a really cool idea for browsing in-i2p www sites. [23:09] <jrand0m> wanna explain whats up moi? [23:09] * jrand0m puts the spotlight on ya *** moi is ~email@example.com (someone) *** on channels: #freenet #anonymous #iip #iip-dev *** on irc via server anon.iip (Official IIP ) *** moi has been idle 9 minutes, signed on at Thu Jan 01 01:00:00 1970 [23:10] <moi> well [23:10] <moi> i am just modifying an HTTP proxy and using mihi's tunnel [23:10] <moi> so that you can go to (Link: http://i2p/BASE64KEYHERE)http://i2p/BASE64KEYHERE [23:10] <moi> eventually the naming server would be there-- [23:11] <dm> sweet [23:11] *** Signoff: mihi (Ping timeout) [23:11] <moi> you have to paste in the first long key, but after that you should technically be able to follow links I think [23:11] <Dellammo> so an internal web page or a page outside of i2p? [23:11] <dm> i2p resolves to localhost? [23:11] <moi> so someone could put up an i2p Google, and go from there.... mabye [23:12] <mihi-backup> !thwap dm. [23:12] <mihi-backup> a proxy... [23:12] <jrand0m> for security, the proxy should 404 all hosts other than (Link: http://i2p/)http://i2p/ [23:12] <dm> oops! [23:12] <moi> good point [23:12] <dm> missed that part [23:12] <mihi-backup> although a simple servlet would be nice too [23:12] <jrand0m> hmm? [23:13] *** mihi (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined channel #iip-dev [23:13] <jrand0m> hmm, there may be a problem. [23:13] <jrand0m> this would use HTTP 1.0 or 1.1? [23:14] <mihi> if the server requests a Host: header? [23:14] <jrand0m> [aka, would it have a Host: header?] [23:14] <jrand0m> exactly [23:14] * mihi wishes for something [23:14] <moi> I wonder if we can have the proxy blank that out [23:14] <jrand0m> if the server's outbound tunnel is always on the same host, thats fine [23:14] <jrand0m> you can set the proxy Host: to 127.0.0.1 [23:15] *** dm_backup (~email@example.com) has joined channel #iip-dev [23:15] <jrand0m> but then you must run the tunnel on the same host as the server. not a bad problem, as its not for general normal-web browsing [23:15] <jrand0m> right? [23:15] *** Signoff: dm (Ping timeout) [23:16] * moi hadn't thought that deeply into it yet [23:16] <mihi> if you run the server on your own box you can also alias i2p to localhost or sth like that. [23:16] <dm_backup> so do people have to run web servers now? [23:16] <jrand0m> dm_backup> this is only for people who want to. [23:16] *** dm_backup is now known as dm [23:16] <Dellammo> like me [23:16] <dm> yeah, I mean for this (Link: http://i2p)http://i2p thingie [23:17] <mihi> if you want to provide content, yes. [23:17] <mihi> but you have to run one to provide content in good ol' www as well. [23:18] <Dellammo> why? [23:18] <dm> Hmmm, maybe I should build a P2P app for I2P. [23:18] <jrand0m> a filesharing app over i2p would rule. [23:18] <dm> yes sorry, filesharing. [23:19] <moi> I think it would be possible for someone to run an OpenNap server in conjunction with i2ptunnel [23:19] <jrand0m> yes. [23:19] <jrand0m> (though a native i2p p2p would have better performance) [23:19] <mihi> but the downloads will be hard. [23:20] <mihi> no way to get to the correct host as all are localhost ;) [23:20] <dm> Let's wait till we see PING running over i2ptunnel first. [23:20] * Dellammo is confused are we talking about a proxy thats not i2ptunnel that lets you access webservers that are internal to the i2p network by typing '(Link: http://i2p/')http://i2p/' ? [23:20] <jrand0m> perhaps just a simple FTP client designed to run over i2p? [23:20] <dm> (not ping literally) [23:20] <mihi> jrand0m: ftp needs 2 ports... [23:20] <jrand0m> designed to run over i2p. [23:21] <jrand0m> a general file transfer app, not the FTP protocol, specifically [23:21] <mihi> then it's not ftp. [23:21] <mihi> ATalk ;) [23:21] <jrand0m> (taking advantage of larger message sizes) [23:21] <dm> battle of the wise men! [23:21] <jrand0m> heh [23:21] <moi> Dellammo: right now you have to create an i2ptunnel for each website/Destination you want to browse. We are thinking of using a proxy server that would dynamically build an i2ptunnel for each site. [23:22] <jrand0m> (kind of) [23:22] <jrand0m> you won't want to use an i2ptunnel, specifically. [23:22] <jrand0m> you'll want to use the i2ptunnel protocol, and send messages directly, not via TCP/IP sockets. [23:23] <jrand0m> mihi> any idea what kind of time it would take to factor the protocol functionality out of i2ptunnel so other apps could send data to an i2p tunnel? *** mihi is firstname.lastname@example.org (mihi) *** on channels: #iip-dev #iip #headlines #german #freenet-opn #freenet #fredisdead #frazaa @#fiw #anonymous *** on irc via server anon.iip (Official IIP ) *** mihi has been idle 3 minutes, signed on at Thu Jan 01 01:00:00 1970 *** mihi-backup is ~email@example.com (mihi) *** on channels: #iip-dev *** on irc via server anon.iip (Official IIP ) *** mihi-backup has been idle 12 minutes, signed on at Thu Jan 01 01:00:00 1970 [23:25] <mihi> is there any large protocol functionality? I2PTunnelRunner can be used as is. [23:25] <mihi> You just have to adjust the client class for your needs. [23:25] <jrand0m> hmm, not really - i2ptunnelRunner uses a socket [23:26] <jrand0m> this is a plain java app that wants to generate a message ("HTTP GET /\n\n") and send it to an outbound I2PTunnel [23:27] <jrand0m> we don't want to redirect the client contacting the proxy to a new port to connect to the newly instantiated I2PTunnel (as there'd be no way to switch back for links off that site) [23:28] <jrand0m> but perhaps switching I2PTunnelRunner to use an InputStream (all it uses is socket.getInputStream) would be easy... [23:28] <jrand0m> but then we still need the listen side [23:28] *** Signoff: mihi (Ping timeout) [23:28] <jrand0m> d'oh [23:28] * jrand0m hopes the backup isn't about to ping out... [23:28] <dm> backup's gonna die as well ,watch it! [23:29] <mihi-backup> ;) [23:29] <jrand0m> w00t [23:29] <mihi-backup> [23:25] <jrand0m> hmm, not really - i2ptunnelRunner uses a socket [23:29] <mihi-backup> [23:25] <mihi> oops, right. and you want to do it completely without sockets? [23:29] <mihi-backup> [23:26] <mihi> then there is not much code left from i2ptunnel. most is for handling the sockets. [23:29] <mihi-backup> [23:26] <mihi> best stick to the protocol and implement it yourself (build the messages w/ the static method in i2ptunnel.java) [23:29] <mihi-backup> [23:28] <mihi> http would not need that many threads. Just run a reader over the incoming message until a double return and then send your thing out. [23:30] <jrand0m> ah 'k. thanks [23:30] <jrand0m> moi> tu sabes? [23:30] <mihi-backup> re switching I2PTunnel for an input stream. what for? you won't get anythin on it any more after you parsed the request. [23:31] * moi thinks [23:31] <dm> toi thinks [23:31] <mihi-backup> just forget the tunnelrunner. ;) [23:31] <jrand0m> right, I was just thinking to keep the I2PTunnel and the http proxy to use the same code - I2PTunnel would use socket.getInputStream(), the http proxy would use new ByteArrayInputStream("GET / \n\n".getBytes()) [23:31] *** mihi (firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined channel #iip-dev [23:32] * moi will need to go over this later in detail [23:32] <mihi-backup> but that will cause the runner to send a "Connection closed" when the string is sent. [23:32] <mihi-backup> as the stream ends. [23:32] <jrand0m> right, which is normal HTTP [23:33] <mihi-backup> just forget the runner, i said ;) [23:33] <jrand0m> 'k [23:33] <mihi-backup> jrand0m: nope. the connection is closed when the answer is here, not when the question is out. [23:33] <jrand0m> oh yeah [23:33] <jrand0m> ;) [23:36] <jrand0m> cool moi, we can work through this stuff later on. [23:36] <jrand0m> ok, thats agenda item 2). now for 3) [23:36] <moi> ok [23:37] <jrand0m> 3) phttprelay [23:37] <jrand0m> phttp relay is a set of servlets wrapped in a .war file [23:38] <jrand0m> it works out of the box on windows / sun JVM, but I had to hack jetty to run w/ kaffe [23:38] <mihi> make .peace not .war [23:39] * jrand0m groans [23:39] <dm> you can run .war files without a J2ee server? [23:39] <dm> good to know. [23:39] <jrand0m> .war files run in any servlet container - tomcat, apache w/ mod_jk, jetty, etc [23:40] <jrand0m> we're going to want some people to run these on machines w/ publicly reachable IP addresses, but they're only necessary for people who don't have publicly reachable addresses (like me) [23:41] <mihi> which ports do you need to redirect if you want to go through a nat without that? [23:41] <jrand0m> its implementation is very rudimentary as well - it needs some limits as to how many routers it relays for, how many messages it queues up, how long before it times out, etc [23:41] <jrand0m> just the I2NP TCP port [23:41] <jrand0m> (or the I2NP UDP port) [23:41] * mihi does not know if his nat allows udp forwarding [23:42] * jrand0m doesn't know if mihi's nat does either [23:43] <jrand0m> right now, for example, my laptop is reachable via PHTTP only, and my server's router is reachable via PHTTP, TCP, and UDP. if my laptop establishes a connection to the server's router via TCP, it can send messages via TCP. but if my laptop doesn't first do that, the server must send messages via PHTTP [23:44] <jrand0m> the code is in i2p/code/apps/phttprelay/ for anyone with servlets experience who wants to hack on a small app [23:45] <jrand0m> (it should also work transparently with https as well as plain http) [23:45] <jrand0m> I'll doc up the PHTTP protocol Real Soon Now. :) [23:45] *** Signoff: mihi (Ping timeout) [23:45] <jrand0m> ok, thats it for item 3) phttprelay [23:45] <jrand0m> 4) i2ptunnel [23:46] <jrand0m> we've already discussed a bunch of stuff. unless mihi (or anyone else) has anything else on it, we can move to 5) [23:46] *** wilde (~email@example.com) has joined channel #iip-dev [23:46] <jrand0m> hola wilde [23:47] <jrand0m> ok. that said, item 5 :) [23:47] <jrand0m> 5) installation [23:48] <jrand0m> to get 0.2 out the door, and beyond, I'm thinking of some ant scripts. [23:48] <jrand0m> or should we use another open source installation system? [23:48] <jrand0m> anyone have any experiences / thoughts on this? [23:49] <Dellammo> hmm [23:50] <jrand0m> ant has the benefit of being unified with the build system, platform independent, and has headless operation. [23:50] <wilde> hey [23:50] <jrand0m> but it requires ant (which requires java). and it doesn't have a GUI [23:51] <Dellammo> i can think of many install programs for windows... i dont know how many are gpl though [23:51] <jrand0m> yeah, I have a licensed InstallAnywhere Enterprise installation, but its bad for open source [23:51] <jrand0m> NSIS is open source, but has its nuances. [23:51] <dm> stupid question: is ant included in java? [23:52] <jrand0m> nope. [23:52] <jrand0m> oh, though we COULD distribute a GCJ'ed ant [23:52] <dm> alright, must have come with eclipse then. [23:52] <jrand0m> (compiled to native code) [23:52] <jrand0m> definitely dm. [23:52] <jrand0m> apache makes ant (ant.apache.org) and its apache licensed. [23:52] <jrand0m> oh, yuck. [23:52] * jrand0m just read the sentence I typed) [23:53] <jrand0m> gpl is not apl friendly, according to the FSF [23:53] <jrand0m> we probably can't distribute ant. [23:53] <dm> can't we just a script? what needs to be done for it to be installed? [23:53] <jrand0m> but we can use it. [23:53] <jrand0m> not much at all. a script is fine. [23:53] <jrand0m> but do we want a .bat and a .sh, etc. [23:54] *** shardy (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined channel #iip-dev [23:54] <dm> what does an installation entail, a couple of questions? [23:54] <jrand0m> writing a java installer to do the install platform independent is overkill, so we should ideally use an existing install framework [23:54] <jrand0m> yeah, a few questions [23:54] <jrand0m> the installation targets I forsee: [23:54] <Dellammo> do we get a flashy new logo? whos working on that? [23:54] <jrand0m> install-router [23:55] <jrand0m> install-www-tunnel, install-www-proxy, install-sdk, install-cvs-tunnel, update-seednodes [23:55] <moi> why not use InstallAnywhere? if the code is open that is what matters [23:55] * jrand0m thinks YOU are Dellammo :) [23:55] <jrand0m> InstallAnywhere isn't open source. [23:55] * Dellammo gets to work [23:56] <dm> script would probably be enough at this point, but I guess might as well think ahead. [23:56] <jrand0m> (its about 4k euro / seat) [23:56] <jrand0m> right. so for tomorrow, I'll probably just write ant scripts, but we need to look into a system [23:56] *** Signoff: wilde (Ping timeout) [23:56] <jrand0m> so if anyone can help out with that, it'd be appreciated :) [23:57] <dm> ah okay, I was thinking shell scripts. [23:57] <moi> Some of the package managers could do that on the Linux installs [23:57] *** wilde (~email@example.com) has joined channel #iip-dev [23:57] <jrand0m> managing different installers for different platforms is a PITA [23:59] <dm> java installer? Why is it a PITA? [23:59] <jrand0m> a java installer would be great [23:59] <mihi-backup> pain in the a**e [23:59] <mihi-backup> oops, sorry... [23:59] <dm> system.out.println("Please enter where you would like to install I2P") ;) [23:59] <mihi-backup> s/tln/t; s/P"/P: "/ [23:59] <mihi-backup> s/sys/Sys/ [00:00] <jrand0m> writing a custom installer in java is possible, but its preferred to use an existing framework. but if you're volunteering to write a custom installer, I'm behind ya! [00:00] <dm> mihi's having an epileptic seizure. [00:00] * mihi-backup slaps dm around a bit with a large trout [00:00] <dm> Tell you what... [00:01] <dm> If you have time at any point to write out the exact steps needed in an install, I'll write a java installer. [00:01] <mihi-backup> dm: read the ant script ;) [00:01] <jrand0m> word dm. once I get the ant thing working I'll doc 'er up for you [00:01] <dm> fair enough, we'll see if I can figure out the ant script once it's out. [00:02] *** Signoff: wilde (Ping timeout) [00:02] <Dellammo> jrand0m, i2p I2P i^2p or I^2P ? [00:02] * jrand0m has some scribbles with a capital I, 2 and a capital P all superimposed on each other... [00:03] <Dellammo> hmm [00:03] *** wilde (~firstname.lastname@example.org) has joined channel #iip-dev [00:03] *** mihi (~email@example.com) has joined channel #iip-dev [00:03] <jrand0m> ok, thats 5) installation [00:03] <jrand0m> 6) iip feature request [00:04] <jrand0m> someone came on here with a request for auto-nicktheifing [00:04] <jrand0m> basically, if someone has registered a nick, no one can stay as that nick unless they're identified [00:04] <jrand0m> nop or anyone who has done iip dev - thoughts? [00:04] * jrand0m thinks it'd be a great feature to have [00:05] * Dellammo draws an illuminati eye with a no 'as in no smoking sign' over it [00:05] <jrand0m> heh [00:05] <dm> Maybe I'll make an I2P logo as well... for the gui part of my installer ;) [00:05] *** Signoff: wilde ((null)) [00:05] <Dellammo> lets all make them, so we dont get stuck with a sucky logo [00:05] <mihi> jrand0m: ask mids - he maintains trent. [00:06] <mihi> the trent source is in cvs btw [00:06] <Dellammo> the logo is the most important part of any activity [00:06] <jrand0m> definitely Dellammo. [00:06] * dm dusts off Corel Draw... [00:06] <dm> man I love Corel Draw. [00:07] <jrand0m> ok, thats it for 6) [00:07] <jrand0m> 7) ??? [00:07] <jrand0m> any questions / thoughts / frisbees/ toenails? [00:07] <dm> Thought: hope it works. [00:08] <jrand0m> heh [00:08] * jrand0m too. [00:09] <mihi> jrand0m: keep the good work! [00:09] <dm> yes, keep it up. [00:09] <jrand0m> good work? you obviously haven't seen the code ;) [00:09] <dm> Love your code, except for the bliding underscores. [00:09] <dm> blinding...bleeding..etc.. [00:09] <jrand0m> heh, instance variables have _, so we don't ever need to do this.var = var; [00:10] <jrand0m> ok... 68 minutes... if I can drag this out for one more minute... [00:10] <jrand0m> w00t [00:10] * jrand0m *baf*s the meeting closed.