I2P dev meeting, November 27, 2012 @ 19:30 UTC

Quick recap

  • Present:

    christop1, darrob, dg, hottuna, KillYourTV, LaughingBuddha, RN, Schnaubelt, str4d, topiltzin, weltende

  • Next Meeting

    The next meeting is scheduled for Tuesday, December 4 @ 20:00 UTC (8:00PM)

完全な IRC ログ

19:33:46  <dg> Alrighty.
19:33:49  <dg> So, today's agenda is:
19:33:52  <dg> 0) Hi
19:33:55  <dg> 1) IRL events
19:33:55  <dg> 2) Websiet
19:33:58  <dg> (2a) redux
19:34:01  <dg> (2b) SSL
19:34:08  <dg> 3) that space where you can pitch anything else
19:34:39  *** KillYourTV sets mode: +l 65
19:34:45  <dg> psi, Meeh, and ech (among others) are those who are attending IRL stuff or are able to/willing
19:34:51  * dg pokes
19:35:02  <str4d> 0) Hi
19:35:02  <str4d> Hi!
19:35:18  *** KillYourTV sets mode: +lf 60 [10j#R10,20m#m5,3n#N15]:15
19:35:28  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> oh.. it's meeting time..
19:35:29  *** KillYourTV sets mode: +l 65
19:35:32  <dg> Hey
19:35:32  <KillYourTV> sorry
19:35:35  <KillYourTV> hi
19:35:38  <dg> no problem welt, hi!
19:35:49  <hottuna_> 'lo
19:35:57  <dg> 1) IRL events then
19:36:24  <dg> We kind of touched on this last time--, I'm wondering if we can utilize the tickets (and men) we have at CCC to get i2p out there somehow
19:36:39  <dg> http://zzz.i2p/topics/1273 is relevant
19:36:56  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> I'll be @ 29c3
19:36:59  <hottuna_> I've got stickers and am going to 29c3
19:37:01  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> (and bring stickers)
19:37:18  <hottuna_> What would be nice is a talk or a workshop
19:37:41  <dg> Exactly my thoughts. Stickers are cool and all but they only vaguely provoke interest.
19:37:55  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> (hmm.. maybe I should bring a big "LANG=en" along this time :P)
19:37:55  <dg> A workshop/talk would be far better
19:38:04  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> +sign
19:38:12  <dg> (A talk would have lasting effects)
19:38:37  <iRelay> * weltende@freenode is an terrible speaker.. *waves vaguely at other people*
19:38:52  <hottuna_> What would be the talking points of a talk?
19:38:55  <hottuna_> a general into talk probably wouldnt be very interesting to many people
19:39:39  <dg> It's not really *our* place to perform a talk on the French researcher's points
19:39:41  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> we could do an getting started with i2p workshop or so?
19:39:49  <dg> General intro would need some sort of point also
19:39:51  <dg> Yeah
19:40:01  <hottuna_> intro*
19:40:01  <hottuna_> (due to the technical nature of the event)
19:40:16  <LaughingBuddha> Maybe a comparison to other solutions like tor?
19:40:31  <LaughingBuddha> s/solutions/options/
19:40:34  <iRelay> LaughingBuddha meant: Maybe a comparison to other options like tor?
19:41:22  <hottuna_> What does make I2P an attractive option?
19:41:22  <Schnaubelt> LaughingBuddha: maybe I didn't see your suggestion in context, but I don't think we should compare software made for different purposes.
19:41:34  <dg> Tor's .onion then, heh.
19:41:45  <dg> That may or may not interest the CCC folk
19:42:00  <dg> It'd still be somewhat generic *as a talk*
19:42:06  <dg> A workshop however would be perfectly apt
19:43:34  <darrob> i don't think differences to tor are a good topic. they are rather subtle from a listener's POV and you would have to go into too much detail.
19:43:49  <RN> workshops are good if you can get a knowledgable volunteer to run it
19:44:00  <darrob> i vaguely remember an i2p workshop in the past that didn't go so well. i might be making that up though.
19:44:11  <str4d> What would we be trying to convey to the listeners? Are we assuming no knowledge of I2P? Passing knowledge?
19:44:15  <dg> any hint as to why?
19:44:26  <hottuna_> There was a tor/i2p workshop last ccc, but it was cancelled by its creator (gamambel). About 10 ppl were there before realizing it was cancelled.
19:45:04  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> ah.. I remember
19:45:04  <dg> str4d: I'd assume a brief kind of acknowledgement and "hey, I've heard of that. maybe." but nothing more(?)
19:45:18  <dg> hottuna_: is 10 good or bad for CCC? I've really no idea about it :(
19:45:18  <LaughingBuddha> Schnaubelt: I am aware of that. But i2p and tor often get used in the same sentence.
19:47:44  <hottuna_> I dont know, not terrible at the very least?
19:47:47  <str4d> What does a workshop usually entail?
19:47:47  <hottuna_> Im not sure, that was the only one I've ever been to.
19:47:47  <RN> welt please pm me on ein after meeting... have a couple questions
19:47:50  <darrob> i think a lightning talk would be pretty good. a diverse selection of people watch them for one. and even if they wonder about the apparent lack of differences to tor, it's still a win if that gets them to look into it more.
19:47:50  <hottuna_> But probably some setting up and demo:ing
19:47:50  <hottuna_> yeah, a lightning talk would be appropriate
19:48:13  <hottuna_> do we have anything new and/or interesting to present?
19:48:19  *** Farside <Farside!Farside@irc2p> has left #i2p-dev (leaving)
19:48:22  <hottuna_> maybe something that tor does not offer?
19:48:28  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> RN: k
19:48:32  <dg> Well, torrents..
19:48:36  <dg> That's not new but.
19:48:42  <dg> Big.
19:49:28  <hottuna_> the torrent bridging idea/infrastructure is interesting
19:49:39  <hottuna_> but not very complete/deployed
19:50:41  <str4d> Yeah, that needs work.
19:51:00  <hottuna_>  having a lightning talk is something the ccc visitors can discuss later on
19:51:00  <darrob> hottuna_: that would deserve an extra lightning talk. i'd worry that mentioning it briefly with i2p would only create the old "is everyone an exit node?" kind of confusion.
19:51:11  <hottuna_> it doesnt have to be planned extensively
19:51:14  <str4d> What would our desired result be? What sort of people would/should this attract? New general users? New high-profile routers? New technical users? New researchers?
19:52:23  <hottuna_> technical users and researchers?
19:52:46  <str4d> darrob, true. We do need to be consistent with terminology in that respect I think - outproxies are a service run by volunteers, just like IRC servers, eepsites and repository hosts. They are not something hard-baked into the router like Tor.
19:55:44  <str4d> In that case, posing some open research questions near the end of the talk would be useful, to show that there is room for novel research (always a drawcard for academics ^_^)
19:56:19  <darrob> str4d: sounds good.
19:56:19  <RN> yes squashing the misconception that I2P is meant to hide your login on facebook should be a big bullet point in any such talk/demo imho
19:59:09  <str4d> "I2P is not a ${DEITY}damn proxy!"
19:59:34  <dg> Hm, ok
19:59:55  <RN> proxy is a really tricky term in I2P context
20:00:24  <str4d> Yep. That's why I changed the default text for the IRC tunnel.
20:00:46  <str4d> (It said "IRC proxy" which is *technically* true but not in the way users think it)
20:00:53  <dg> I think those of us visiting CCC could *really* do a workshop this year, and possibly a lightning talk (although that'd most likely be regarding torrents)
20:01:05  <dg> Time to move on to website
20:01:05  <dg> ?
20:06:52  <RN> did you skip updated info on mergability?
20:08:14  * dg missed messages
20:09:02  <dg> str4d: that's a good idea
20:09:05  <dg> also:
20:09:12  <dg> <+dg> I think those of us visiting CCC could *really* do a workshop this year, and possibly a lightning talk (although that'd most likely be regarding torrents)
20:09:12  <dg> <+dg> Time to move on to website
20:09:12  <dg> <+dg> ?
20:10:19  <dg> Messages keep getting dropped. gah.
20:10:19  <topiltzin> oops sorry I was late
20:10:26  <dg> no problem
20:10:26  * topiltzin catching up with backlog
20:10:49  *** w8rabbit_ is now known as w8rabbit
20:11:11  <iRelay> <ReturningNovice_@kytv> dg, I was asking if you were skipping over mergability of fux update to website, (but my connection is tripping)
20:11:39  <dg> Mine is too.
20:12:08  <iRelay> * ReturningNovice_@kytv flips some switches and adjusts some knobs
20:12:14  <str4d> fux hasn't changed in the last week, so no need to cover it at present.
20:12:25  <dg> I am. The outcome last time wasn't good and the fux folk have expressed that any merging is not desirable (at least right now). It may be possible for us to grab some features in future but I guess there's more important things right now?
20:12:28  <dg> Perhaps I'm wrong.
20:12:28  <dg> Yeah.
20:13:43  <str4d> (I'm working on feeds for 0.9.5 so that's my priority)
20:13:54  <dg> Oh, right.
20:14:20  <dg> I setup #i2p-www (just reg'd it), and the idea was that me among others could participate in a "book sprint" almost to get the pages done
20:14:28  <dg> I wasn't sure which pages *actually* needed work, though
20:14:57  <dg> The idea is that #i2p-www could be used as a sort of web committee to get revamp up to scratch and report back to -dev (in meetings I assume) when there's updates
20:15:28  <hottuna> We're updating docs or are we revamping the site?
20:15:37  <dg> Revamping the site
20:15:51  <dg> <@dg> http://vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p/en/site/
20:15:51  <dg> <@dg> i2p.www.revamp is the mtn
20:15:57  <str4d> dg, I'd recommend that text revamp be done know
20:16:00  <str4d> argh
20:16:03  <dg> We determined that the current design isn't friendly enough etc.
20:16:20  <str4d> in I2p.www
20:16:48  <topiltzin> ok caught up with backlog
20:16:59  <str4d> and design/structure of the new site in I2p.www.revamp
20:16:59  <topiltzin> we on website now?
20:17:07  <dg> yup
20:17:22  <hottuna> alright! duck's design. Very nice.
20:17:34  <dg> str4d: If that's easier for you, sure.
20:17:57  <topiltzin> do we have a eepsite with that design?
20:18:04  <topiltzin> does it require javascript for anything?
20:18:11  <christop1> huch can you reaach the eepsite
20:18:11  <christop1> ?
20:18:20  <dg> &cs http://vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p/en/site/
20:18:20  <iRelay> Trying to check status of "http://vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p/en/site/" for dg. Please wait...
20:18:26  <iRelay> http://vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p/en/site/ responded with status 200 within 5 seconds.
20:19:09  <topiltzin> and "Ur mom" is still there. :-/
20:19:12  <hottuna> What work needs to be done before it's a viable alternative?
20:20:04  * dg is wondering this
20:20:47  <str4d> topiltzin, I apologize for not removing that yet -_-
20:20:58  <str4d> design needs work/overhaul
20:21:45  <RN> yeah, I remember seing a preview of that... it was a nice profesional look...
20:21:45  <RN> (and vekw35...i2p's bandwidth gets slashdotted lol)
20:21:48  <str4d> but that can be worked on later, with multiple proposals if necessary
20:21:55  <topiltzin> looks alright to me.  Is all the content - mtn howto, developer keys, that stuff there?
20:22:22  <str4d> first priority IMHO is getting backend finished.
20:22:41  <str4d> topiltzin, I've migrated most of it.
20:22:44  *** sayliwo_ is now known as sayliwo
20:23:03  <RN> does the revamp use the regular trac tickets?
20:23:41  <str4d> I'm still not happy with the page / navigation layout though..
20:23:48  <RN> a ticket for "remove "ur mom" " would serve as a reminder to whom it gets assigned to...
20:24:07  <topiltzin> I don't know if "Supported Software" is the best name for the middle column because it's really listing actions, not actual software
20:24:30  <str4d> RN, the frontpage needs a rethink.
20:25:09  <str4d> duck's layout copied the Tor site, and it would be good to make it more unique.
20:25:20  <dg> Could we get a list of things that need doing so someone could perhaps tackle it/at least we have a clear, concise list?
20:25:39  <hottuna> I agree dg
20:25:54  <topiltzin> how drastic of a rethink do you have in mind, str4d ?
20:25:57  <str4d> I can outline later what I know needs doing.
20:26:19  <dg> Thanks!
20:26:22  <dg> I guess we're done with that
20:26:36  <dg> weltende: you here?
20:26:46  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> yup
20:26:59  <str4d> topiltzin, I like the general layout, but the three columns content needs rethinking.
20:28:17  <topiltzin> Agreed.  I'm available to discuss whenever you think it's best
20:29:45  <str4d> and the footer is almost unnecessary
20:29:48  <str4d> fwiw the news column on the right is dynamic
20:29:48  <str4d> (i.e add a new article to backed and the list is updated)
20:29:48  <str4d> That's another thing-  caching needs thought
20:29:48  <str4d> </braindump>
20:30:36  <topiltzin> dg: we can dig in deeper on the website or keep going - your call
20:34:32  <dg> <+topiltzin> dg: we can dig in deeper on the website or keep going - your call
20:34:35  <dg> <+dg> I'm fine with digging deeper, I just don't want this to drag on too long and have some people leave, but the remaining topic is pretty small and mainly just between me and welt
20:35:11  <topiltzin> ok
20:36:00  <topiltzin> I would change the name of the middle column "Supported Software" -> "What can I2P do"
20:36:11  <topiltzin> and since we already have a similar question in the title above, I would consider changing that
20:36:34  <topiltzin> maybe "What does I2P do for you" -> "What is I2P"
20:37:28  <dg> RN: Do we actually have a trac category for this?
20:37:35  <topiltzin> no passive tense on the front page == good
20:37:38  <RN> I'd suggest changing "can be conducted anonymously on I2P." to "can be conducted anonymously inside I2P."
20:37:50  <dg> Ooh.
20:37:57  <dg> inside does sound far better, actually.
20:38:08  <dg> A lot of people do not seem to understand that i2p is a space.
20:38:19  <str4d> We don't want too much text on front page, but given the improved navigation, how much redundant linking is needed?
20:38:37  <RN> dg, if we don't one could probably be created...
20:38:59  <str4d> And could some of it be replaced with other feeds/intro text/something?
20:39:14  <str4d> dg, www
20:39:21  <dg> of course, I'll go create a ticket for "your mom".
20:39:28  <topiltzin> What about simplifying that sentence a bit? "Many things would risk your privacy on the public Internet but you can do them anonymously inside I2P"
20:39:46  * topiltzin was hoping we were mature enough to not need ticket for "ur mom" but we do, so be it
20:40:48  <dg> Should I spare us the embarrassment or do we actually need to make a ticket?
20:40:51  <topiltzin> I'm trying to come up with the most condensed and accessible description possible for the front page
20:41:25  * RN giggles at "<dg> of course, I'll go create a ticket for "your mom"."
20:41:44  <KillYourTV> I think str4d won't forget about it so it's probably not needed.
20:41:59  <KillYourTV> (nor anyone else that does anything on it)
20:42:02  <topiltzin> toss a coin.  whatever it takes to get it done :-/
20:42:05  <str4d> we don't need a ticket for it
20:42:24  <RN> didn't mean to start such an uproar
20:42:27  <dg> It'd be nice to have some things officially noted, although uh.. not the "your mom"..
20:42:30  <str4d> as I said, I think that entire column needs replacing with something else.
20:42:38  * dg sweeps "your mom"-gate under the rug.
20:42:45  <RN> but at least we know there's definately an apropos place for such
20:43:00  <str4d> dg, then a ticket for "replace left column content with something else"
20:43:51  <dg> ok
20:44:22  <topiltzin> left column could even go away entirely imo
20:44:49  <topiltzin> gives us more room to expand on the functionality more
20:45:16  <str4d> as
20:45:16  <str4d> Argh, ignore that- _-
20:45:49  <dg> Trac keywords are delimited by "," right?
20:46:12  <KillYourTV> afaik, yes
20:47:11  <topiltzin> we could even remove the heading "Supported Software" and just use that space to list the different things I2P can do
20:47:26  <dg> http://trac.i2p2.i2p/ticket/792
20:47:29  <topiltzin> better than list - give a small blurb on each if appropriate or include an icon
20:47:39  <dg> topiltzin: That'd be sweet, actually.
20:48:00  <str4d> remember that the navigation, columns and footer are just lists, so the left column could be altered/removed with a different theme as well.
20:48:03  <dg> "Supported Software" isn't user friendly anyway
20:49:06  <RN> hmm.... icons... that could get stylisticly opinionated quickly
20:50:34  <str4d> icons etc should be left to theming. maybe we should think about the content we want on the front page for now, and not necessarily how it will be arranged?
20:50:45  <topiltzin> if we can't agree on what icons we think look good we don't have to have any
20:51:49  <topiltzin> you mean beyond removing the left column str4d ?
20:52:35  <RN> yeah, I agree with str4d I think content first, form second, icons as eyecandy in theemes or later
20:52:50  <RN> the most important two questions someone will likely have when they come to the site, are either, why do I need this? and I've got it, so what now?
20:53:16  <str4d> Well, does it need removal? Would a brief intro with a "read more" link be useful? Would a small infographic be helpful?
20:53:35  <str4d> Things like that - content.
20:53:38  <topiltzin> I like infographics in Pretty Colors (TM)
20:54:30  <topiltzin> and as RN asked - what do we answer when the first-time visitor asks "why do I need this?"
20:54:33  <RN> yeah topiltzin, but you use paint
20:54:40  <RN> ;)
20:54:51  <topiltzin> it wouldn't be me alright, zero visual skill here :-P
20:55:43  <RN> breif with a "read more" is a good idea imho
20:55:57  <dg> <+dg> I'd rather not fill up trac with loads of unnecessary tickets but at the same time, it helps to keep a handle on what needs to be done.
20:56:00  <dg> <+dg> Oh, and http://vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p/en/site/volunteer/bounties - Bounties links are broken.
20:56:00  <dg> <+dg> I think I'm going to go ahead and make tickets for these.
20:56:11  <iRelay> Title: Bounties - I2P (at vekw35szhzysfq7cwsly37coegsnb4rrsggy5k4wtasa6c34gy5a.b32.i2p)
20:56:40  <str4d> dg, are they? Must have missed a link migration...
20:57:11  <KillYourTV> I tried a few links at random and they loaded for me
20:57:18  <topiltzin> what would you say in such brief RN ?
20:57:45  <dg> GCJ, for example. "http://dev.i2p.net/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/i2p/Makefile.gcj"
20:57:52  <dg> A duck.i2p one too.
20:58:07  <dg> I'll trac these too.
20:59:10  <str4d> Oh, that is text- related dg
20:59:17  <RN> well, I'd say something like, the internet is watching you...
20:59:17  <RN> lol
20:59:24  * dg notes
20:59:24  <str4d> they will fail on current website as well.
20:59:39  <RN> I'd need a little time to think up something more serious
20:59:47  <dg> str4d: Thanks :)
21:00:13  <topiltzin> I'm not opposed to having something not-so-serious but not all the way to "ur mom"
21:01:25  <topiltzin> ideally something inviting.. not too formal
21:01:36  <topiltzin> definitely worth brainstorming
21:06:05  <MTN_> i2p.trac: #795: Bounties being broken http://trac.i2p2.i2p/ticket/795
21:06:08  <MTN_> i2p.trac: #793: Mirror links http://trac.i2p2.i2p/ticket/793
21:06:08  <MTN_> i2p.trac: #792: Replace left column content http://trac.i2p2.i2p/ticket/792
21:06:43  <dg> <+dg> Tickets #793 - #795 I have created so far.
21:06:43  <dg> <+topiltzin> ideally something inviting.. not too formal
21:06:43  <dg> <+topiltzin> definitely worth brainstorming
21:06:43  <dg> <+dg> btw I'm in no rush to close this up unless you guys are ready
21:07:41  <topiltzin> I guess it comes down to why do we want more people to use i2p and what do we tell them so that they start using it
21:08:00  <RN> mirroring and ssl are the only remaining items, aside from brainstorming about the content?
21:08:19  <dg> SSL is between me and welt mainly, and I made a ticket for it
21:08:19  <topiltzin> wanna take care of those two and come back to content at the end?
21:08:34  <dg> Mirroring was touched on last week.. I think we still may need welt for that.
21:08:34  <dg> Oh.
21:08:42  <dg> I'd like to bring up something, actually
21:08:56  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> I am here..
21:09:00  <dg> Do you guys think that a mailing list returning for dev discussion etc would be useful or not?
21:09:10  <topiltzin> +1 yes please
21:09:17  <dg> weltende: See ticket #794
21:09:29  <dg> imo we closed the discussion wrt SSL last week
21:09:40  <RN> a mailing list yes, would be good to start one up again imhho
21:09:43  <hottuna> Im not so sure about a mailinglist. zzz.i2p seems to fill that void very well.
21:10:02  <iRelay> http://trac.i2p2.i2p/ticket/794 - (assigned defect) - SSL
21:10:03  <RN> though, the warm fish has a good point
21:10:39  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> hottuna: the old ML attracted outsiders though..
21:10:59  <hottuna> zzz.i2p is also already established and working quite well
21:11:23  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> hottuna: not as much as the ML used to be
21:11:35  <hottuna> welt: yeah, that is true. but it has to be useful and not just bloat for the sake having more stuff
21:11:56  <topiltzin> both work although mailing lists in general are very common in open-source projects
21:11:56  <topiltzin> it's a long-standing tradition in a way.  I can live with zzz.i2p but I'd feel right at home with a developer mailing list
21:12:17  <str4d> mailing list could be handy (I'd considered setting a mailing list site up, but wasn't sure how to handle emails without creating one email per list on postman)
21:12:23  *** blitzkrieg_ is now known as blitzkrieg
21:12:38  <topiltzin> is attracting outsiders a bad thing? ;-)
21:12:46  <hottuna> maybe build it and they will come? if no-one cares it will die soon enough
21:13:00  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> topiltzin: I meant it as a pro-argument for an ML
21:13:12  <topiltzin> oh ok
21:13:32  <hottuna> alternatively ask zzz for an externalized versions / linkto zzz.i2p.to / linkto zzz.i2p.in
21:13:39  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> yeah.. will set one up once I have time
21:14:43  <topiltzin> I generally don't feel comfortable typing in my password when using those in/out proxies but others may not mind
21:15:56  <hottuna> yeah, an inproxy is probably not optimal
21:16:26  <dg> <+dg> This exists, by the way. It's dead though.
21:16:29  <topiltzin> what's the last thing you got dg?
21:16:29  <dg> <+dg> http://lists.welterde.de/mailman/listinfo/i2p-general
21:16:29  <dg> <+dg> Also, might wanna turn directory listing off on *.welterde.de.
21:16:32  <dg> <+dg> http://lists.welterde.de/mailman/
21:16:32  <dg> <+dg> Anyway, ok
21:16:32  <dg> <+topiltzin> I generally don't feel comfortable typing in my password when using those in/out proxies but others may not mind
21:16:35  <iRelay> Title: I2p-general Info Page (at lists.welterde.de)
21:16:35  <dg> <+dg> I don't either.
21:16:38  <iRelay> Title: Index of /mailman/ (at lists.welterde.de)
21:17:14  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> dg: ah.. I forgot about that.. just never made it onto the website I guess..
21:17:25  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> (would rather make it lists.i2p2.de or so though)
21:17:33  <dg> I would too :-)
21:20:27  <dg> topiltzin, personally - I'd like a mailing list but for me, at least it'd be more about the professionalism of it et all, rather than any benefit I can describe to you and preach
21:20:42  <dg> but I suppose the rest of you feel that it'd be beneficial, so that's good
21:20:45  <topiltzin> dg: return true;
21:20:45  <topiltzin> having mailing list archives is very useful; makes the project more like other open-source projects if nothing else
21:21:49  <topiltzin> how is that different from zzz.i2p + inproxy access : not much different other than the random new developer would have less of a learning curve to deal with
21:22:30  <topiltzin> also allowing search engines to index the mailing list archives contributes to the global knowledge base so that's good
21:22:40  <RN> or someone curious about I2P could read some discussion and perhaps decide to install it and try it out
21:22:55  <topiltzin> very often I'm searching for something and I find the answer in the mailing archive of some open-source project
21:23:18  <topiltzin> RN: that is possible, I prefer to keep all possible venues open.
21:23:28  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> topiltzin: the ML is not about new developers.. or people that are involved in i2p at all.. but rather people outside of the project, that critique the protocol, implementation, etc.
21:23:40  <topiltzin> and then let the users / developers / market decide which place is the best
21:23:47  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> which has very much died down since the crash
21:24:14  <topiltzin> I don't see why it can't be for both, weltende
21:24:44  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> topiltzin: sure.. but imho my aspect is the more important aspect ;-)
21:25:04  <topiltzin> :-P
21:25:14  <dg> <+topiltzin> I don't see why it can't be for both, weltende
21:25:14  <dg> <+dg> Also, going to throw an idea out here: geti2p.net as a default domain from some $period onwards
21:25:14  <dg> <+dg> (maybe when we launch the new design)
21:25:34  <dg> <+dg> <+dg> I was thinking that, actually
21:25:34  <dg> <+dg> <+dg> It paints a better picture
21:25:34  <dg> <+dg> <+topiltzin> I don't see why it can't be for both, weltende
21:25:34  <dg> <+dg> <+dg> Also, going to throw an idea out here: geti2p.net as a default domain from some $period onwards
21:25:37  <dg> <+dg> <+dg> (maybe when we launch the new design)
21:25:44  <hottuna> I like geti2p.net
21:25:55  <topiltzin> iRelay> <weltende@freenode> topiltzin: sure.. but imho my aspect is the more important aspect ;-)
21:25:55  <topiltzin> <topiltzin> :-P
21:26:06  <dg> So do I, not perfect (i2p.net would be better, obviously) but better than the current IMO.
21:26:17  <KillYourTV> ticket #795 is now fixed for the live site.
21:26:20  <dg> also, sorry for my flaky connection.
21:26:26  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> the stickers already say geti2p.net iirc ;)
21:26:34  <iRelay> http://trac.i2p2.i2p/ticket/795 - (new defect) - Bounties being broken
21:26:38  <str4d> Is I2p.net still registered to jrandom?
21:26:48  <dg> it was paid for many years
21:26:51  <dg> so yes
21:26:58  <dg> unless jrandom returns, we're kind of screwed.
21:27:02  <dg> There's no promise we'll get i2p.net once it expires, either.
21:27:08  <dg> (unless we go to ICANN?)
21:27:10  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> yeah... until 2016
21:27:18  <str4d> And I agree with your idea dg
21:27:29  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> dg: verizone actually
21:27:42  <topiltzin> yeah, new design + new domain name = freshness
21:27:51  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> err.. verisign
21:27:57  <dg> I thought you'd go to ICANN for getting a domain back if someone else steals it afterwards, say it is your "brand".
21:28:04  <str4d> I already plan to have the site dynamically change URLs for sites it knows are available inside and outside I2p
21:28:15  <dg> sadly, I doubt we can go to ICANN/etc now and say "hey, can we have it now please? We don't want to wait until 2016!"
21:28:35  <dg> (unless we have some good friends)
21:28:41  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> dg: no.. ICANN only deals with TLD's.. you have to go to the TLD
21:28:49  <str4d> So e.g. forum.I2p <-> forum.i2p2.de
21:28:52  <dg> ah, rite
21:29:07  <dg> Is it possible to get in contact with $hostOfForum?
21:29:11  <str4d> We could get *.i2p? :D
21:29:22  <dg> forum.i2p is/was popular and the stability would help..
21:29:51  <dg> (It doesn't help that an officially linked forum is down a lot of the time and we have.. no forum for users). It worked good for a while.
21:30:08  <dg> str4d: also, yes. the "(in i2p)" and conflicting linking styles on pages is strange and obscure.
21:30:15  <dg> I'd rather what you suggested. :-)
21:31:10  <dg> btw - "2007-09-28 - Syndie 1.101a" is kind of lame to have on the site..
21:35:18  <RN> syndie actually is something I think we should keep
21:35:25  <RN> it needs a dev to show it some love, but it works and is quite usefull once you get used to it
21:35:25  <RN> heck, putting this meeting log in syndie would be a cool idea imho
21:35:32  <dg> Keep but find someone to work on.
21:35:35  <dg> Yeah.
21:36:14  <topiltzin> So we have domain name, mailing list, content brainstorm.  Any specific one we want to or need to focus on further?
21:36:56  <dg> I don't think so, but maybe someone disagrees heh.
21:38:53  <topiltzin> what do you mean by "should keep" RN?
21:39:05  <dg> <+dg> btw - "2007-09-28 - Syndie 1.101a" is kind of lame to have on the site..
21:40:30  <iRelay> <RN__@kytv> I think syndie has huge potential
21:41:02  <iRelay> <RN__@kytv> it seemed dg was suggesting removing it from the software list or something
21:41:18  <KillYourTV> We need to have updated tarballs/installers linked. Perhaps we should also have syndie.i2p2.de managed by mtn as well.
21:41:40  <dg> Kind of. I was proposing that we perhaps hide the date or change the design to have it standing out less, it looks bad IMHO to have such stale software on the page
21:41:47  <dg> It hurts first impressions of Syndie and i2p
21:42:01  <dg> KillYourTV: Yeah. Just having those tarballs/etc up would help..
21:42:04  <topiltzin> Maybe we can keep it but remove the date?  I think the lameness stems from the 2007 token
21:42:15  <dg> (and the broken installer..)
21:42:19  <dg> s/installer/packaging
21:42:29  <iRelay> <RN@kytv> ah, just changing the link text to "Syndie"
21:42:29  <topiltzin> that is until active development picks up again (re: removing the date)
21:42:32  <iRelay> <RN@kytv> I agree
21:43:28  <iRelay> <RN@kytv> yeah, I'm with that
21:43:44  <topiltzin> :)
21:43:55  <str4d> dg, revamp doesn't have it there.
21:43:55  <str4d> That box on current site is meant to be the equivalent of the "news"
21:43:55  <str4d> Having a Syndie link would be good, but more as e.g. part of middle column.
21:44:05  <dg> I think we're mostly done
21:44:16  <dg> Although netsplit
21:44:23  <str4d> (So the 2007 syndie page is still there, but accessible through the blog)
21:44:26  <dg> pfft, I don't think we're missing anyone who was involved
21:44:33  <dg> Good meeting, guys.
21:44:40  <dg> How about 8:00PM next time?
21:44:43  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> dg: next meeting could with a bit more structure ;-)
21:45:14  <dg> weltende: heh, sorry. We had a lot to talk about and I didn't anticipate it'd go like this, I figured it'd be short. I'll include that in my planning next time. :-)
21:45:14  <dg> oh well
21:45:17  <dg> still, good outcome.
21:45:24  <topiltzin> RN: since you brought the focus on content I'm looking forward to hearing your suggestions :)
21:45:31  <str4d> Mmm. Maybe structure the shorter topics first, and the more discussion-y ones later.
21:45:31  <topiltzin> whenever they're available
21:45:42  <topiltzin> +1 str4d
21:45:53  <topiltzin> the more open-ended ones at the end makes sense
21:45:56  <dg> str4d: Yeah, might be a good idea. I hope I'm doing okay though, heh.
21:45:59  <dg> I think I have.
21:46:14  <str4d> It's better than no meeting at all =)
21:46:28  <topiltzin> topiltzin> RN: since you brought the focus on content I'm looking forward to hearing your suggestions :)
21:46:31  <topiltzin> <topiltzin> whenever they're available
21:46:31  * dg smiles
21:46:42  <topiltzin> return true; // ;-)
21:46:44  <iRelay> <RN@kytv> you are getting a good start dg...
21:46:44  <dg> topiltzin: nah, RN got it from kytv
21:47:10  <iRelay> <RN@kytv> yeah yeah  topz
21:47:13  <iRelay> <RN@kytv> ;)
21:47:23  <iRelay> <RN@kytv> so did you bang the mallot... ?
21:47:27  <dg> I'm glad, I feel as if we've done something good today (and last week)
21:47:27  * dg uh.. bamfs the meeting closed.
21:47:38  <dg> Meeting will be 8:00PM next time, same day.
21:47:47  <iRelay> <RN@kytv> YAY! officialness
21:47:47  <dg> RN: bam
21:48:05  <iRelay> <RN@kytv> :)
21:48:06  * dg highfives RN
21:48:20  *** KillYourTV changes topic to "Latest dev build: 0.9.3-11 | Dev mtg here 8:00 PM (20:00) UTC Tues. Dec. 4 | Report bugs at http://trac.i2p2.i2p / http://trac.i2p2.de"
21:48:28  <iRelay> * RN@kytv gives dg a beer
21:48:31  <topiltzin> **smooth**
21:48:38  <iRelay> <weltende@freenode> dg: actually it used to be *baf*s I think :P
21:48:50  <dg> drat
21:48:53  * dg notes
21:49:00  <str4d> Yep. So not finished yet =P
21:49:30  <dg> *baf*s